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1964 GT Hawk R2 Brake Issue

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  • #31
    Here's a pic of the two different pedals. The OP's car has the one with 1.75" distance between holes, easy to discern, on or off a car.
    Attached Files

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    • #32
      Back again.

      Crawled under car and took a few pics while I was there.

      First things first, Joe, the OD of the rim of the brake drum measured 13", yes 13. You can see that it fills the wheel pretty well. I did not pull the wheel, because I was able to get at it from under the car.

      Also took a couple of pics of the backing plate. As noted above, that may provide clues.

      In addition, there is the infamous drain plug, verification of the 3.54 twin traction rear end (very cool) and a close up of the door jamb tag.
      I saw the notes above discussing the originality of the car, all good. Good to challenge. I have captured the data from the D/S website, so I have it.

      I called Timeless Horsepower and talked to Brett Watson, the person who sent the car to Mecum.
      Here is the backstory:

      Car was purchased by a gentleman named Dwayne. Extensive collection of 80+ cars, in a "museum-like" environment in Colorado. He is the one to purchase the car from Daniels/Schmidt in 2016/2017. He had 80 cars, so that is why he only raked up a couple of hundred miles not the Hawk.

      Brett knew the documentation was important, but Dwayne is sadly suffering from health issues, causing him to liquidate his collection : (. Dwayne and his curator could not find the documentation. Brett also Called D/S and they remembered the car, but did not have the paperwork and were confident it went with the car.

      So, Brett is still working with Dwayne and his curator, as they are almost done selling-off the collection. Brett has my contact info and will pass along to Dwayne and let him know I will have the car for a very long time, if the paperwork is found. FYI, I don't sell my cars. I search for the ones I want, and if lucky-enough to buy it, it becomes my kids or surviving spouse's issue to sell : ). I get way to attached to my lady friends.

      I plan to call D/S as well, just to see if they can point me to the previous owner, so I can continue to build the history.

      I really appreciate anyone on the forum that thinks they have some knowledge of the car, previous owners, or any other aspect. I love this aspect of classic cars. The stories are as much fun as the car : )

      Please take a look at the pics and I am interested in hearing the options for upgrading the brakes.
      Joe, quick question, would pulling the pressure switch (or buying an alternative) and have a tee in brake line and put it in (temporary) be possible short term solution to getting brake lights? (I need to check that I have juice to the hot side of the switch, but it I do, then I can use that circuit). Other recommendations are welcome for quick-fix on brake lights.

      Thanks as always,

      Art



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      • #33
        Originally posted by Dwight FitzSimons View Post

        I am in the process of converting my 64 Hawk R1 from drum brakes to Turner disc front brakes and 11" rear drums. This is under the assumption that Studebaker and Bendix knew what they were doing, and the non-self-energizing drum braking characteristics are better matched to discs than self-energizing drums on the rear. If I am wrong it would be good news in a way as I can more easily put the 10" brakes back on the car than finish the conversion to 11" rear drums.
        -Dwight
        You are correct, as long as you use an OEM type MC, and plumb both front and rears throughout the HV. Also, you will be sorely disappointed if you do not use a HV, preferably the one for PDB, since it puts out much more PSI to the brakes. Also, if your car originally had powered drum brakes, you will greatly benefit from the 63-64 PDB/59-64 standard pedal described above, and shown in the pic I just now posted.

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        • #34
          Hi Art,
          Will stop referring to you as, "the OP" LOL. Yep, the 13" backside, wheel cylinder backside, and backing plate all confirm OEM 11" rear brakes. Technically, the only, "incorrect" components in your brake system are: Turner front discs (a good upgrade), the drum brake HV (definitely need the one for discs), and the tandem MC. The tandem MC is a good safety upgrade, but with the 11" rears bypassing the HV, you lose about 900 PSI in the rear lines, going to factory, "detuned" 11" brakes. So you'll get about 90 percent stopping power from the front discs, and maybe 10 percent from the rear drums. But with the OEM type MC, and front & rears plumbed through the HV, you will have nearly restore the factory front/rear balance. I say nearly, because the Turner front discs are generally thought to be more efficient than OEM.

          To recap, there are other options, but most feasible to me: install the correct HV for discs; replace the tandem MC with an OEM type, and open the rear proportioning valve all the way, or simply remove it. Of course the rears should be disassembled and inspected, repaired/replaced as necessary. Everything is available, albeit some may be repro.
          Last edited by JoeHall; 03-26-2020, 03:52 PM.

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          • #35
            It may remain a Mystery why the Serial Number Plate "appears to have had" it's Welds cut and was mounted with Rivets.
            It IS "possible" that Engineering for some unknown reason actually did switch the Serial Plate from a Standard Production Car to this Prototype R2 Jet Thrust Show Car.

            I could understand a car being Re-Serialized after having an Engineering Number "EX" Originally, but they were screwed on and would not need to be Cut, and of course this plate is the standard Production Plate.
            StudeRich
            Second Generation Stude Driver,
            Proud '54 Starliner Owner

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            • #36
              I was curious, what does "OP" stand for anyway? I think I even saw "PO" somewhere in the thread, lol, and I wasn't PO'd at all : ))

              Back to the topic:

              OK, to recap: I get a proper HV for Power Disc Brakes (I think there was a place to purchase one noted back in thread, but want to confirm. I think the forum member noted that without a core, they are all but impossible to get. So, a part number (also I think there was one listed) and supplier would be great.

              Second was the MC: So, go back to a non-split OEM MC? Not an issue, did it on my 64 Marauder and it works fine. I just have them on 6 year replacement or rebuild plans. Again, source and part number would be great.

              I will remove the proportioning valve when I re-plumb the brake lines. If I understand, a brake line will go directly from OEM MC to one side of the HV then leave the HV and split into serving front and rears. That will also allow the pressure switch to perform its task. Please confirm.

              Last. Should I or should I not replace the brake pedal. It appears to be original, and per one of the posts, the car with the performance package would have had Power brakes. So, the pedal design should be of the appropriate mechanical leverage to work with the system, once corrected.

              As to brake fluid, I will have the entire system flushed. What is the recommended replacement fluid? Please confirm.

              Oh, and as you noted Joe, I will do complete servicing of the rear brakes and drums. The front brakes and rotors are pristine. I was really surprised. I am thinking that the car got a lot less driving once the brake mods were made and it was difficult to stop. Therefore there is little wear on at least the fronts.

              If possible, please confirm the couple of items above and I will get into purchasing the items and then will be ready to get her on the road with confidence.

              Thank you to all who have contributed to the post. It is great to be a part of a great car community. A 64 R2 Hawk has been on my wish list for a long time, so I am very pleased to now have one of my own. I look forward to exploring the car. I am sure I will find other "interesting" things that I will post up on the forum, seeking the wisdom of the experts. As Jay Leno always says: ' When you decide you want to buy a car, you need to find "the guy"'. The Studie Forum appears to have a number of "the guys" who know the cars inside and out.

              Thx

              Art

              Comment


              • #37
                Hi Art,
                Here are the parts you'll need, as listed in the Studebaker International (ph 317-462-3124) 2014 catalog: 802101 Hydrovac, 63-64 Hawk w/front discs; 536652 Hydrovac flex hose (need 2); 1543003 Rear flexible hose (connects to 'T' on rear end housing); 1558124, Master cylinder, 63-64 Hawk w/front discs (cap not included); 679927 Master cylinder cap and gasket; 189696 Master cylinder screw (special bolt that holds 'Y' fitting in place); 195470 Master cylinder 'Y' fitting.

                Hopefully I did not forget anything. The correct cap for your MC is not listed in SI's catalog, but they may have one one hand. If not try other vendors, i. e. Stephen Allen in Florida. I listed the regular cap, in case you have to use that for awhile till you can find the correct one. Need the correct one to plumb the reservoir to the MC. You may also need other plumbing parts, will need to inventory yours and compare with the Parts Manual. I listed the HV rubber hoses because unless yours are nearly new, I'd replace them, as they tend to swell on the inside and restrict flow after a few years; ditto for the rear rubber hose. Retain your vacuum check valve, as you will probably not find another, "correct" one (yours appears correct in the pix). Test it to be sure it seals well, but it does not have to be perfect, a little bit of leak down is OK. Install new vacuum line, and insure the check valve flows the correct way. It appears to have been reversed, comparing the two sets of pix. The correct HV looks similar to the one you have now. Best way to insure they sent you the correct one is that it will only have one bleeder valve, whereas the wrong HV has two (like the HV on the car now).

                When you check the 11" rears, if you need anything, I have a full set of everything: new drums, wheel cylinders, shoes, etc., with maybe 2000 miles, and 1-2 years old. But our vendors same, brand new. Long story, but for, "the wife's" factory PDB equipped 63GT I replaced the 11" with 10", retained the tandem MC, and plumbed the rears to bypass the HV. It works great, but yours will too, with the 11" rears. Wife had another 63GT with factory PDBs for about 10 years, and the OEM brakes were excellent. The wife drove it 50,000 miles before totaling the car.

                I suggest keeping your 11" as it will: retain factory front/rear balance; be closer to stock; simpler to do, and require less parts. But if you decide on 10" rears it is doable, but pretty sure you'll like the 11". The main difference between 10" and 11" rears is the 10" are self energizing, whereas the 11" are not; they work just like discs, so need lots of line pressure to squeeze the shoes hard enough against the drum to stop. Without the HV boost, the 11" brakes are all but nil. But the 10" don't need near as much line pressure, and balance well with the HV boosted front discs.

                Hope this helps.
                Last edited by JoeHall; 03-27-2020, 10:57 AM.

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                • #38
                  Art - OP is original poster.

                  I go along with what Joe Hall just posted. Return the brake system to the way that the Hawk was built, with the exception of the new front disc conversion (Turner?).

                  If the engine number (stamped into the block), the "secret" serial number (stamped into the rear crossmember) and the equipment match what is called out on the production order, I believe at least the chassis and drivetrain are correct/original to the car. To me, it looks like these items have been swapped into another body. I can think of no other reason to cut off the Serial Number plate and then attach it in a non-production manner. Perhaps the original body was wrecked or badly rusted. The body plate is simply two screws.

                  When working on the rear brakes, use a HUB puller, not a DRUM puller.
                  Gary L.
                  Wappinger, NY

                  SDC member since 1968
                  Studebaker enthusiast much longer

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                  • #39
                    Hi Joe,

                    OK, Thanks for the detailed response. I am on the case.

                    Couple of quick questions, though I will look closely at the manual:

                    1) Anything required, unique, to plumb the reservoir to the OEM MC cap? Its not there now, so want to be sure it is done correctly. It appears there is a little access hole in the floor boards on driver's side to access the MC cover.

                    2) Where is the check valve? I will look again, but not sure what I am looking for and how you knew it was reversed, so I don't make same mistake.

                    3). All of the linkage from the pedal to the push rod is OK? Just use it for new set-up?

                    4) Will that push rod be retained and used on OEM MC? Don't know if new one comes with the rod and related.


                    In general I plan to keep the 11"ers. I will see what the condition is, but wouldn't be surprised if almost like new as I strongly suspect that after the "upgrade" previous owners were reluctant to drive it much, given the highly limited performance.

                    Many thx for the time and detail, Joe, I really appreciate the help.

                    Thx

                    Art

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Another option is as others have suggested, install the correct HV, keep the tandem MC, and keep the 11" rears plumbed to bypass the HV. I tried exactly that, and felt it was unsafe. Supposedly the rear only provides 30 percent stopping power, but plumbed that way, it is more like five percent. For all around driving, a properly balanced system just feels, "right", less pitching forward, and definitely stops better in rain. Kinda like riding a bicycle with only a front brake, sooner or later you are gonna bust your azz. One good thing about this approach, the shoes will last at least a million miles. When I removed mine after a couple thousand miles, the shoes were hardly even scuffed in. LOL

                      Another option is to keep the current HV bypassed, and just leave it there as a dummy. I tried that too, the wife drove it about 1000 feet and said, "there's something wrong with the brakes", and refused to drive it again. She likes the current setup just fine, but no HV was a definite no go. LOL
                      Last edited by JoeHall; 03-27-2020, 11:57 AM.

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                      • #41


                        Art:

                        We own 1964 R2 Full package GT 64V 1083 the build date is also Aug 12 1963!
                        It is an addiction!

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                        • #42
                          Hi Gary.

                          I will do some sleuthing on the car. Please let me know specifically where to look for the numbers and I will see what I can find. Also, what does the cowl plate tell you about the car. That did not look like it was replaced or removed. It is in one of my previous pics.

                          I do have more history, but not enough to conclude anything about when the car was restored. I traced it back to 2009 and a gentleman by the name of Kurt M (who I spoke to this afternoon) that bought the car in Hershey PA, at an auction. He also has a very large collection and did not do the brakes but told me that the brakes scared his dad and he wouldn't drive the car. Kurt did drive it but noted that it was to shows and the like and would be surprised if he put 1000 miles on it from 2009 to 2015 when he sold it to John at Daniels/Schmidt.

                          As noted, Daniels/Schmidt knows the documentation went with the car to Colorado, to Dwayne. I have connected with him via Brett Watson at TimelessHP and will see if he finds the documentation as they complete the sell-off of his collection and the shut-down and move from his (Dwaynes) current location.

                          Kurt confirmed he got all of that documentation when he purchased the car at Hershey and passed it along to D/S.

                          The is all I know for now. I will continue to search for more info and see how far back I can go. In short, it appears that the car has only had about 1000 miles or less put on it since 2009.

                          JBWHTTAIL: If my car is what it is, then they were born he same day! Does anyone know how many of the original 7 are still around? Would be cool to get them together somewhere in the future : )

                          Thx. Art

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Art,
                            I have not seen anything to cause doubt about your car. The incorrect HV is not unusual for PDB equipped 63-64 Hawks. Turner, "upgrade" disc brakes on Studes that originally came with PDBs is not unusual. VIN plate removal and reinstall with rivets or screws is not unusual. What is unusual is the gas tank drain plug, and it is highly unlikely many people would have a clue as to why it was installed. I had no idea, till someone explained here recently. In my opinion, that speaks volumes for your car's authenticity.

                            As for the, "secret, hidden VIN", just need to unscrew three bolts and remove rear lower valance that shrouds the tail pipes, below the bumper. Here is a recent link, with picture, that explains it well: Locating the Elusive "Hidden" serial number
                            Last edited by JoeHall; 03-27-2020, 09:37 PM.

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                            • #44
                              The main thing that the body (cowl) plate tells you is the order in which that body was welded up out of the K6 Hawks. It should be painted the body color when the body was painted.

                              The secret/hidden S/N is stamped into the rear chassis crossmember. It is about in the center of the bottom of the flange, facing down. It takes a little detective work to see them. There is another current thread/topic here on the subject and it includes a drawing and a picture. Do a search or perhaps someone can post a link to it. I just discovered the Joe Hall provided a link (thanks).
                              Gary L.
                              Wappinger, NY

                              SDC member since 1968
                              Studebaker enthusiast much longer

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by CO64 View Post
                                Hi Joe,

                                OK, Thanks for the detailed response. I am on the case.

                                Couple of quick questions, though I will look closely at the manual:

                                1) Anything required, unique, to plumb the reservoir to the OEM MC cap? Its not there now, so want to be sure it is done correctly. It appears there is a little access hole in the floor boards on driver's side to access the MC cover.

                                2) Where is the check valve? I will look again, but not sure what I am looking for and how you knew it was reversed, so I don't make same mistake.

                                3). All of the linkage from the pedal to the push rod is OK? Just use it for new set-up?

                                4) Will that push rod be retained and used on OEM MC? Don't know if new one comes with the rod and related.


                                In general I plan to keep the 11"ers. I will see what the condition is, but wouldn't be surprised if almost like new as I strongly suspect that after the "upgrade" previous owners were reluctant to drive it much, given the highly limited performance.

                                Many thx for the time and detail, Joe, I really appreciate the help.

                                Thx

                                Art
                                Art,
                                1. Use the Parts Manual to inventory what you have, and determine what is missing.
                                2. The check valve is the inline yellowish-white plastic, 90 degree junction block shown in each pic of the HV. It has a vacuum hose coming into it from a fitting on the intake manifold, then a vacuum hose coming out the other port going to a fitting on the HV.
                                3. The linkage from your current setup should swap over to the OEM type MC, and needs nothing more
                                4. See number 3 above. Same answer

                                Hope this helps,
                                Joe H
                                Last edited by JoeHall; 03-29-2020, 09:27 AM.

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