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1964 GT Hawk R2 Brake Issue

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  • studegary
    replied
    Originally posted by nels View Post
    One other note on the serial plate. I’ve seen more than one Stude with the plate screwed on the post rather than welded. One was on a 64 full package R2 I owned about 40 years ago. It had about 20k original miles at the time and had original paint, carpet, upholstery, etc. That car was absolutely never touched or tampered with. Maybe the spot welder was broken/out of commission the day of assembly in SB? The fact is; some, not many, serial plates were attached with screws, So, I’m sure your serial plate and car is correct but verification can be made using the secret serial number.....if it’s still legible.
    The difference is whether the original plate has had its original welds broken/cut or the plate was never welded. This plate shows signs of having been originally spot welded.

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  • nels
    replied
    One other note on the serial plate. I’ve seen more than one Stude with the plate screwed on the post rather than welded. One was on a 64 full package R2 I owned about 40 years ago. It had about 20k original miles at the time and had original paint, carpet, upholstery, etc. That car was absolutely never touched or tampered with. Maybe the spot welder was broken/out of commission the day of assembly in SB? The fact is; some, not many, serial plates were attached with screws, So, I’m sure your serial plate and car is correct but verification can be made using the secret serial number.....if it’s still legible.

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  • nels
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeHall View Post

    If this is the OP's car, there is no mention of PDBs on any of the paperwork I could see, unless they are included in the, "37 HI PERF PKG R2". However, I can see that it has the reservoir on the firewall, but a HV for drum brakes. So, if it has DBs, no mater if OEM or Turners, they will never work well (hard pedal) with the lower PSI drum brake HV. Nor will the rears work well with the tandem MC, plumbed to bypass the HV, if they are 11" drum type, which came with factory PDB. On the other hand, if they are the 10", self energizing type that came with front drums, they will work quite well if plumbed separately, provided the shoe liner is good quality.

    No need to buy a Production Order, as a perfectly readable one is shown in the ad.

    Option 122, GAS TANK DRAIN PLUG is interesting, and no charge listed.
    Joe.
    The hi performance package came with disc brakes so isn’t called out separately. The drain plug is on there as it was a show car and tank needed to be drained for entrance to a convention center.

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  • CO64
    replied
    Correction on last post: Save the 11'ers. (not 10" ers)

    Art

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  • CO64
    replied
    HI Joe and Rich,

    Thanks for the extra details. Awesome. I am on the case. I am going to save the 10"ers, no issue. Hopefully in great shape or easily refurbished.
    From my sleuthing, no one has touched the brakes since AT LEAST before 2009 .

    For all that watched this post, and those that contributed, Thx! I am likely just going to close here. If I have any questions Joe, I will PM you from this post.

    I do have some other general things, but will post in the general topic area.

    Last thing for those still following this post, does anyone know how I can get in touch with Myles Walker. I am guessing he was a SDC member, back in early 2000's, but not sure if he is still an active member. Myles owned my car in 2002 (last documented case that I can find). Let me know! I am going to post a general request to find Myles separately.

    Thanks again for the great and rapid response.

    Art Tyre
    Sun City West
    64 R2 Hawk

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Art, ASSuming you may be tempted to drive your GT awhile as is, before getting round to restoring the brakes, as discussed here, you wanna be sure the current tandem MC is full of fluid. As you mentioned, there's an access plate in the floorboard above the MC, and Turner recommence to cut an additional hole rearward for access to the rear reservoir. But that access plate is below the carpet, which must be untucked from below the sill plate to pull ups dn over to uncover the access plate, etc.. In short, it's a real PITA, and can be messy.

    For many years, I've been checking/adding fluid to the tandem MC from below the car. Use a large screwdriver with a slight angle bend (better yet, brake shoe adjusting spoon) to remove/reinstall the wire that holds the cover in place; slide the cover off, then use a finger tip as a dip stick to check fluid level (both reservoirs). If even 1/4" down, I top off. Use a 2 ounce plastic syringe, available in most FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Stores); attach a 2" length of 5/16"rubber hose on the tip, then slip a 5/16" copper line into the hose, about 4" long, bent into a 'U' shape. With syringe filled, slip the copper line into the reservoir and and squeeze the syringe to add fluid. You will develop a knack for filling the syringe by sticking the end of the copper line into a container of brake fluid. FIRST, you need to figure out which DOT fluid is currently in the car. Rather than reinvent the wheel, there are several excellent videos on line to review, explaining how to do that. Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-29-2020, 10:10 AM.

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  • StudeRich
    replied
    Originally posted by CO64 View Post
    I was curious, what does "OP" stand for anyway? I think I even saw "PO" somewhere in the thread, lol, and I wasn't PO'd at all : ))

    Back to the topic:

    OK, to recap: /Cut/As to brake fluid, I will have the entire system flushed. What is the recommended replacement fluid? Please confirm./Cut/If possible, please confirm the couple of items above and I will get into purchasing the items and then will be ready to get her on the road with confidence.

    Thank you to all who have contributed to the post.
    Thx Art
    OK Art you are doing a Fine Job and are a Fast learner! Just follow Joe's Good info and forget about all that Modifying to 10 Inch Rear drum stuff he does not recommend.

    Here is the answer to your unanswered Question:
    After throughly Flushing, Blowing dry all the lines, cleaning as many Wheel Cylinders as well as you can and replacing some and the Master Cyl. you should have it clean enough to install the Very BEST Fluid!

    I Highly recommend the DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid (Order the QUARTS, the 12 OZ are outrageous $).
    I have used it for 25 to 30 Years and three of my Stude's. have not needed Hydraulic Parts replacement EVER since installing it!

    Most here also agree, just get all fittings good and tight and expect to replace the Hydraulic Stop Light Switch with a Mechanical, normally OPEN switch, either Now or after the Fluid eats the Hydraulic Switch.

    When Ordering a New M/C you can order the 531510 for non-Disc and just be sure to Remove the Residual Valve on the end of the Internal Return Spring and the Rubber Cushion in the back end of the Cylinder.

    The '59-'64 Chassis Parts Catalog lists all the Parts of the M/C's. and those 2 Parts are THE Only difference.

    OH!
    PO = Prior Owner
    OP = Original Poster ... You!
    Last edited by StudeRich; 03-28-2020, 10:41 PM.

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Originally posted by CO64 View Post
    Hi Joe,

    OK, Thanks for the detailed response. I am on the case.

    Couple of quick questions, though I will look closely at the manual:

    1) Anything required, unique, to plumb the reservoir to the OEM MC cap? Its not there now, so want to be sure it is done correctly. It appears there is a little access hole in the floor boards on driver's side to access the MC cover.

    2) Where is the check valve? I will look again, but not sure what I am looking for and how you knew it was reversed, so I don't make same mistake.

    3). All of the linkage from the pedal to the push rod is OK? Just use it for new set-up?

    4) Will that push rod be retained and used on OEM MC? Don't know if new one comes with the rod and related.


    In general I plan to keep the 11"ers. I will see what the condition is, but wouldn't be surprised if almost like new as I strongly suspect that after the "upgrade" previous owners were reluctant to drive it much, given the highly limited performance.

    Many thx for the time and detail, Joe, I really appreciate the help.

    Thx

    Art
    Art,
    1. Use the Parts Manual to inventory what you have, and determine what is missing.
    2. The check valve is the inline yellowish-white plastic, 90 degree junction block shown in each pic of the HV. It has a vacuum hose coming into it from a fitting on the intake manifold, then a vacuum hose coming out the other port going to a fitting on the HV.
    3. The linkage from your current setup should swap over to the OEM type MC, and needs nothing more
    4. See number 3 above. Same answer

    Hope this helps,
    Joe H
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-29-2020, 09:27 AM.

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  • studegary
    replied
    The main thing that the body (cowl) plate tells you is the order in which that body was welded up out of the K6 Hawks. It should be painted the body color when the body was painted.

    The secret/hidden S/N is stamped into the rear chassis crossmember. It is about in the center of the bottom of the flange, facing down. It takes a little detective work to see them. There is another current thread/topic here on the subject and it includes a drawing and a picture. Do a search or perhaps someone can post a link to it. I just discovered the Joe Hall provided a link (thanks).

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeHall
    replied
    Art,
    I have not seen anything to cause doubt about your car. The incorrect HV is not unusual for PDB equipped 63-64 Hawks. Turner, "upgrade" disc brakes on Studes that originally came with PDBs is not unusual. VIN plate removal and reinstall with rivets or screws is not unusual. What is unusual is the gas tank drain plug, and it is highly unlikely many people would have a clue as to why it was installed. I had no idea, till someone explained here recently. In my opinion, that speaks volumes for your car's authenticity.

    As for the, "secret, hidden VIN", just need to unscrew three bolts and remove rear lower valance that shrouds the tail pipes, below the bumper. Here is a recent link, with picture, that explains it well: Locating the Elusive "Hidden" serial number
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-27-2020, 09:37 PM.

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  • CO64
    replied
    Hi Gary.

    I will do some sleuthing on the car. Please let me know specifically where to look for the numbers and I will see what I can find. Also, what does the cowl plate tell you about the car. That did not look like it was replaced or removed. It is in one of my previous pics.

    I do have more history, but not enough to conclude anything about when the car was restored. I traced it back to 2009 and a gentleman by the name of Kurt M (who I spoke to this afternoon) that bought the car in Hershey PA, at an auction. He also has a very large collection and did not do the brakes but told me that the brakes scared his dad and he wouldn't drive the car. Kurt did drive it but noted that it was to shows and the like and would be surprised if he put 1000 miles on it from 2009 to 2015 when he sold it to John at Daniels/Schmidt.

    As noted, Daniels/Schmidt knows the documentation went with the car to Colorado, to Dwayne. I have connected with him via Brett Watson at TimelessHP and will see if he finds the documentation as they complete the sell-off of his collection and the shut-down and move from his (Dwaynes) current location.

    Kurt confirmed he got all of that documentation when he purchased the car at Hershey and passed it along to D/S.

    The is all I know for now. I will continue to search for more info and see how far back I can go. In short, it appears that the car has only had about 1000 miles or less put on it since 2009.

    JBWHTTAIL: If my car is what it is, then they were born he same day! Does anyone know how many of the original 7 are still around? Would be cool to get them together somewhere in the future : )

    Thx. Art

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  • jbwhttail
    replied


    Art:

    We own 1964 R2 Full package GT 64V 1083 the build date is also Aug 12 1963!

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  • JoeHall
    replied
    Another option is as others have suggested, install the correct HV, keep the tandem MC, and keep the 11" rears plumbed to bypass the HV. I tried exactly that, and felt it was unsafe. Supposedly the rear only provides 30 percent stopping power, but plumbed that way, it is more like five percent. For all around driving, a properly balanced system just feels, "right", less pitching forward, and definitely stops better in rain. Kinda like riding a bicycle with only a front brake, sooner or later you are gonna bust your azz. One good thing about this approach, the shoes will last at least a million miles. When I removed mine after a couple thousand miles, the shoes were hardly even scuffed in. LOL

    Another option is to keep the current HV bypassed, and just leave it there as a dummy. I tried that too, the wife drove it about 1000 feet and said, "there's something wrong with the brakes", and refused to drive it again. She likes the current setup just fine, but no HV was a definite no go. LOL
    Last edited by JoeHall; 03-27-2020, 11:57 AM.

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  • CO64
    replied
    Hi Joe,

    OK, Thanks for the detailed response. I am on the case.

    Couple of quick questions, though I will look closely at the manual:

    1) Anything required, unique, to plumb the reservoir to the OEM MC cap? Its not there now, so want to be sure it is done correctly. It appears there is a little access hole in the floor boards on driver's side to access the MC cover.

    2) Where is the check valve? I will look again, but not sure what I am looking for and how you knew it was reversed, so I don't make same mistake.

    3). All of the linkage from the pedal to the push rod is OK? Just use it for new set-up?

    4) Will that push rod be retained and used on OEM MC? Don't know if new one comes with the rod and related.


    In general I plan to keep the 11"ers. I will see what the condition is, but wouldn't be surprised if almost like new as I strongly suspect that after the "upgrade" previous owners were reluctant to drive it much, given the highly limited performance.

    Many thx for the time and detail, Joe, I really appreciate the help.

    Thx

    Art

    Leave a comment:


  • studegary
    replied
    Art - OP is original poster.

    I go along with what Joe Hall just posted. Return the brake system to the way that the Hawk was built, with the exception of the new front disc conversion (Turner?).

    If the engine number (stamped into the block), the "secret" serial number (stamped into the rear crossmember) and the equipment match what is called out on the production order, I believe at least the chassis and drivetrain are correct/original to the car. To me, it looks like these items have been swapped into another body. I can think of no other reason to cut off the Serial Number plate and then attach it in a non-production manner. Perhaps the original body was wrecked or badly rusted. The body plate is simply two screws.

    When working on the rear brakes, use a HUB puller, not a DRUM puller.

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