vin number help

Good morning, I work for the Dept. of Motor Vehicle in Nevada and I have a customer that has a 1950/51 Studebaker 2R5 PU that I am trying to identify. Does anyone know where I might obtain information on the vin numbers?

Tanna

[Roscomacaw]

The "VIN" number (actually the "Serial number" in the case of a Studebaker) should be on a small metal plate, just below the lower end of the seat - on the driver's side. IF that plate's gone, you're outta luck.
There's another little ID plate (or should be), just inside the door jamb - driver's side and low - that has numbers on it but they ARE NOT the serial or VIN number.
Many states - in the 40s & '50s - registered vehicles by using the engine number for identification. THAT number is STAMPED into the engine block (assuming this 2R5 still has it's flathead 6 cylinder engine) on the upper front corner (driver's side) where the cylinder head meets the engine block.

There's NO other numbers on this truck to be found. Not even some "hidden" numbers stamped into the frame. There might well be some 4-digit PART numbers stamped into various frame pieces, but they don't constitute anything you could register the truck by.

With the 2R series of trucks (built from '48 thru '53) there's NO real way to tell one year from another. Even the serial numbers aren't a TRUE means of defining a given year, unless of course, you DID have a serial number that you could send to the Studebaker museum and thereby obtain a production order for YOUR specific truck. Said PO would yield a build date that you could use to define it as a "___" model 2R5 truck!

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

[Roscomacaw]

By the way... the First 2R5 would've been serialized "2R5-001" Since there were 110,500 of these built from '48 thru '53, we can theorize that the last one's serial # would be "2R5-110,500". And also, the plates these serial numbers were stamped on, MAY have lost all their painted portion over the years. Since the "2R5" portion of the serial numbers was painted on the tags, we can end up with only the stamped, last numbers of the serial #.
Another thing peculiar to Studebakers is that for unknown reasons, they used the capitol letter "I" as the numeral "1" in any serial or engine numbers.

One other note : Studebaker had another assembly plant in Canada at the time. Trucks built there had a bit different serial number. An example would be 2HR5-001. The inclusion of an "H" after the "2" being the way to set apart a Canadian-built truck from a US-assembled one. After half a century, surely a few Canadian-built 2R5s have found their way south. Likewise, a few US-built examples have ended up in Canada.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

[tanna]

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna

[Roscomacaw]

https://www.studebakermuseum.org

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

[Dwain G.]

Frank Drumheller over on the Studebaker Truck Forum........... http://www.network54.com/Forum/23885/
..........can somehow come up with a breakdown of serial numbers to model year for most M series, and I think some R series too.

Dwain G.

[Dick Steinkamp]

quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna

The engine number crosses to a '49-53 2R5...

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/tech_6data.asp

-Dick-

[Skip Lackie]

quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna

I have a poor Xerox copy of Studebaker Truck Service Letter dated October 26, 1950 that states that 2R5 models starting with serial number R5-42501 should be considered as 1951 models. A similar Service Letter dated October 22, 1951 (that went to the state of Nevada among others) states that the starting serial numbers for 1952 Model 2R5 trucks was R5-78579. Therefore, the subject truck with serial number R5-46600 is a 1951 model. As has been stated, the engine number indicates that it is the correct engine for this model, though not necessarily the engine that was originally installed in this truck. If needed, I could mail you copies of these service letters -- could also try to fax them, but I'm not sure they'd be readable.

I have used these service letters in the past to resolve similar uncertainties about Studebaker vehicles with the District of Columbia DMV.

Skip Lackie
Wash, DC

[garyash]

Skip, if you have the information handy, can you also post the serial numbers where the dividing point is between 1949 and 1950 and also between 1952 and 1953 models? These questions come up all the time in reference to 2R trucks and their year of manufacture.

It would also be useful if someone had a breakdown on the 1R sequence of engine numbers. The list on the tech data pages on this SDC site lumps all the '49-'53 engines together. I guess it didn't seem important to Studebaker at the time.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard

https://www.studegarage.com

[Roscomacaw]

Skip, I too would love to get that info. I answer that question on a regular basis and while I've been sure that someone had researched this point at one time (obviously, they had), I had no more to go on than what's been written in TW and other places (like the parts manuals) thru the years.
Obviously, it didn't mean much when the trucks were new, but modern day DMVs want definitive proof of YEAR. They don' know nuthin' 'bout no injun nummers!

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

[Skip Lackie]

quote:Originally posted by Skip Lackie

quote:Originally posted by tanna

The plate has a serial number of R5-46600 but the title is registared with an engine number of 1R68203 and the title also give year as 1950 and 1951 there lies the problems. Do you have a number or email address for the Studebaker museum?

Tanna

I have a poor Xerox copy of Studebaker Truck Service Letter dated October 26, 1950 that states that 2R5 models starting with serial number R5-42501 should be considered as 1951 models. A similar Service Letter dated October 22, 1951 (that went to the state of Nevada among others) states that the starting serial numbers for 1952 Model 2R5 trucks was R5-78579. Therefore, the subject truck with serial number R5-46600 is a 1951 model. As has been stated, the engine number indicates that it is the correct engine for this model, though not necessarily the engine that was originally installed in this truck. If needed, I could mail you copies of these service letters -- could also try to fax them, but I'm not sure they'd be readable.

I have used these service letters in the past to resolve similar uncertainties about Studebaker vehicles with the District of Columbia DMV.

Skip Lackie
Wash, DC

Tanna-
In attempting to respond to the above notes by Gary Ash and Mr B, I started looking through my truck service letters, and this causes me to correct my above response to Tanna. The confusion WRT the model year results from a bit of sleight of hand executed by the Studebaker Corp itself in 1950. An Oct 1949 service letter states that all 2R5 models with serial numbers above R5-42501 shall be considered to be 1950 models. Okay so far. But then the Oct 1950 service letter referenced earlier states that all 2R5 models above R5-42501 (IE, THE SAME NUMBER) that were sold new to a retail customer on or after 1 November 1950 shall be considered to be 1951 models. One can only speculate on the reasons for this little fib, but one would be that there were essentially no differences between the 1950 and 51 models, so it really didn't matter.

All that said, it will be extremely difficult to make an absolute determination of the model year without knowing when the retail customer actually bought the vehicle. The production order will tell you when the truck was built and (usually) the name of the dealer that ordered it, but won't include the date of retail sale. Maybe common sense should prevail: R5-42501 was the first 1950 model truck, and R5-78579 was the first 1952 model. Number R5-46600 was clearly built early in the 1950 model year (probably in late 1949), and it would not be unreasonable to assume that it was sold some time before November 1950. So the best bet would be to call it a 1950 model.

Good luck!
Skip Lackie
Wash DC

[Skip Lackie]

quote:Originally posted by garyash

Skip, if you have the information handy, can you also post the serial numbers where the dividing point is between 1949 and 1950 and also between 1952 and 1953 models? These questions come up all the time in reference to 2R trucks and their year of manufacture.

It would also be useful if someone had a breakdown on the 1R sequence of engine numbers. The list on the tech data pages on this SDC site lumps all the '49-'53 engines together. I guess it didn't seem important to Studebaker at the time.

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard

https://www.studegarage.com

Gary and Bob-
Okay, here is the best I can do on starting serial numbers for Stude trucks. First, there is no breakdown of engine numbers in the truck service letters I have seen. So on that score, we're still stuck with the numbers in the parts books. Second, I do not have the computer skills of a JDP or N8N, so there's no Excel spread sheet attached. But here are the data I gleaned from the service letters:
1949: As stated in parts books, all models start at 001
1950: R5-42501; R10-20101; R15-10801; R16A-24401; R17A-13501; and any of the above models with earlier numbers if delivered new to retail customer after 1 Jan 50. Also R6-001; R11-001; R14-001.
1951: R6-201; R11-101; R14-101. For other models, same numbers as 1950, if delivered new after 1 Nov 50.
1952: R5-78579; R6-3355; R10-31339; R11-3127; R14-531; R15-12770; R16A-33041; R17A-22791; or any earlier number sold new on or after 15 Nov 51.
1953: R5-96238; R6-7424; R10-34250; R11-5926; R14-1011; R15-13398; R16A-39413; R17A-31039; or any earlier number sold new on or after 15 Nov 52.
1954 - 57: in parts book
1958: E5-125401; E6-16901; E7-9801; E11-13001; E12-3601; E13-2301; E14-2801; E16-45201; E17-38401; E28-6201; E38-11101; E40-1501.
1964: Any 8E sold new on or after 1 Aug 63.

Skip

[garyash]

That's great, Skip! If you don't mind, I'll add the info to a page on my web site where I have the numbers for the M trucks (thanks to Fred Fox's article and the manuals). I have a bunch of paint codes for the trucks there, too.
See http://www.studegarage.com/refdata.htm

Gary Ash
Dartmouth, MA
'48 M5
'65 Wagonaire Commander
'63 Wagonaire Standard

https://www.studegarage.com

[Skip Lackie]

Glad to be of service (for once!).

[Roscomacaw]

Yeah - thanks Skip! Cool Deal!

As to the date of retail sale, I don't see where that's of much matter. At least so far as the DMV's concerned. Given the 2Rs are almost indistinguishable thru their run, I would think it would be valid to say that if a given truck was built in 1950, then it ought to BE a 1950 truck. [8D]
After all, when lingering models from a previous year are sold, their STILL sold as the year model they really are - not according to what the calendar says on the day of sale.

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS