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  • #16
    Mr. Biggs, Not so in California. I have a 68 MGC that has a higher or later serial no. than my 69 MGC, a few friends in the Southern Cal. MG club have 81-83 MGB's even though they made the last one in 1980 they go by the date sold.

    Comment


    • #17
      Left coast. Go figure.[}]
      "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

      Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
      Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
      '33 Rockne 10,
      '51 Commander Starlight,
      '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
      '56 Sky Hawk

      Comment


      • #18
        1959 and 1960 truck starting serial numbers are in the shop manual. They are too numerous for me to type in here. The numbers that Skip provided should go in a reference section on this SDC site.

        Studebaker not only carried over trucks for later model year registration but also authorized new 1963 Avantis that were still in stock to be sold as 1964s. This is as per Service Letter G-1964-3, dated September 27, 1963. This caused many 1963 Avanris to be registered/titled as 1964s and continues to be an identification problem to this day.

        Gary L.
        1954 Commander Starliner (restomod)
        1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)
        Gary L.
        Wappinger, NY

        SDC member since 1968
        Studebaker enthusiast much longer

        Comment


        • #19
          quote:Originally posted by Alan

          Mr. Biggs, Not so in California...they go by the date sold.
          They do? I bought a 2001 GMC in November of 2000. It was titled in California as a 2001 (not the date sold).

          I'm sure there are exceptions, but I believe it is California DMV's intent to title a car corresponding to the model year of that vehicle. Not when it was necessarly produced, and not necessarly when it was sold.




          Dick Steinkamp
          Bellingham, WA

          Comment


          • #20
            In this time frame in Virginia, vehicles were titled according to the engine number and the year they were sold. Thus if the dealer had leftover stock (which incidently looked just like the new stock) it was then titled as the following year.

            Guido

            1946 M-16 fire truck
            1949 2R16A grain truck
            1949 2R17A fire truck
            1955 E-38 grain truck
            1957 3E-40 flatbed
            1961 6E-28 grain truck
            1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
            1962 Champ pickup
            1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
            1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
            1964 Cruiser

            Comment


            • #21
              I took Skip's numbers and some info from the June 1985 article in Turning Wheels by Fred Fox and put a quick web page together on the 2R serial numbers. It's here:
              http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

              We're getting very close now. We still can't distinguish 2R5, 2R10, 2R15, 2R16A, and 2R17A trucks between 1950 and 1951 (if it's really imporatnt). Maybe a few people could post serial numbers for trucks built in August-October 1950 to get an idea.

              Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

              Gary Ash
              Dartmouth, MA
              '48 M5
              '65 Wagonaire Commander
              '63 Wagonaire Standard
              www.studegarage.com
              Gary Ash
              Dartmouth, Mass.

              '32 Indy car replica (in progress)
              ’41 Commander Land Cruiser
              '48 M5
              '65 Wagonaire Commander
              '63 Wagonaire Standard
              web site at http://www.studegarage.com

              Comment


              • #22
                quote:Originally posted by garyash
                Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

                Gary Ash
                Dartmouth, MA
                '48 M5
                '65 Wagonaire Commander
                '63 Wagonaire Standard
                www.studegarage.com
                Fred Fox gave starting serials (as per the parts catalog) for the very first 16A and 17A from the 1949 model year.
                Skip Lackie gave the 1950 model year starting numbers as per service letters.
                Dwain G.
                So.....if I'm 'pre-approved' why do you want me to fill out an application?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thanks, Dwain. My one-cell brain got confused. I fixed the list on my web page. It's here:
                  http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

                  Gary Ash
                  Dartmouth, MA
                  '48 M5
                  '65 Wagonaire Commander
                  '63 Wagonaire Standard
                  www.studegarage.com
                  Gary Ash
                  Dartmouth, Mass.

                  '32 Indy car replica (in progress)
                  ’41 Commander Land Cruiser
                  '48 M5
                  '65 Wagonaire Commander
                  '63 Wagonaire Standard
                  web site at http://www.studegarage.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Alan, I've got an old registration here in front of me. (California - "pink slip") This one's for the '57 President 2-door I have. It shows the car to be a '57 but says: "Date Sold - 56". What you would get from that?[?]

                    Miscreant at large.

                    1957 Transtar 1/2ton
                    1960 Larkvertible V8
                    1958 Provincial wagon
                    1953 Commander coupe
                    1957 President 2-dr
                    1955 President State
                    1951 Champion Biz cpe
                    1963 Daytona project FS
                    No deceptive flags to prove I'm patriotic - no biblical BS to impress - just ME and Studebakers - as it should be.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      U.S. Postal Service back then was so efficient, mail was received before it was sent.[)]
                      "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

                      Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
                      Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
                      '33 Rockne 10,
                      '51 Commander Starlight,
                      '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
                      '56 Sky Hawk

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        MG's were dated by year sold, don't know if they did the same for Non foreign cars. 2007 cars being sold now should they be regestered as 2006's? You can get into many different scenerios depending on the situation. Calif. D.M.V. can make you want to tear your hair out. Am parting out a 53K now that I bought in 1977 from a guy who's son died in Vietnam, said he would look for the pink. Sat in my yard for years. Went looking for the guy I bought it from and he died in 96. So I went to Sacramento 2 years ago to get it straightened out and seams to have had a fire in the archives and there is no record of anything before 1985. It is just one episode of chaseing your tail after another.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Years ago I bought a 48 Cadillac hearse for which the title had been lost. When I tried to obtain a duplicate the lady at our DMV told me that, since Pennsylvania had updated to computerized records, she was sorry but the vehicle no longer existed.[:0]
                          And David Copperfield had not yet been born.
                          "All attempts to 'rise above the issue' are simply an excuse to avoid it profitably." --Dick Gregory

                          Brad Johnson, SDC since 1975, ASC since 1990
                          Pine Grove Mills, Pa.
                          '33 Rockne 10,
                          '51 Commander Starlight,
                          '53 Commander Starlight "Désirée",
                          '56 Sky Hawk

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            quote:Originally posted by garyash

                            I took Skip's numbers and some info from the June 1985 article in Turning Wheels by Fred Fox and put a quick web page together on the 2R serial numbers. It's here:
                            http://www.studegarage.com/REFDATA/2R_sernum.htm

                            We're getting very close now. We still can't distinguish 2R5, 2R10, 2R15, 2R16A, and 2R17A trucks between 1950 and 1951 (if it's really imporatnt). Maybe a few people could post serial numbers for trucks built in August-October 1950 to get an idea.

                            Also there is a discrepancy between the serial numbers in the service letters that Skip references and the Fred Fox June,1985 article in TW on 2R trucks for 2R16A and 2R17A trucks. Fred stated that the first serial numebr for 2R16A is R16A-13,201 and for 2R17A trucks is R17A-7,201. I have no idea where Fred got the numbers. How do we resolve the difference?

                            Gary Ash
                            Dartmouth, MA
                            '48 M5
                            '65 Wagonaire Commander
                            '63 Wagonaire Standard
                            www.studegarage.com
                            Gary-
                            A minor glitch in your listing: The 2R6, 2R11, and 2R14 were introduced late in the 1950 model year (my recollection is June 1950, but I don't have access to my sales letter collection at the moment). Their serial numbers all started at 001. Apparently a small number of these were sold as 1950 models, as my serial number listing above shows 1951 models starting at R6-201, R11-101, and R14-101. Your listing does not include these in the 1950 data, and shows the 2R6 models starting at R6-101 instead of 201. Of course, the uncertainty regarding the 1950/51 split for Champion-engined trucks remains.

                            Skip
                            Skip Lackie

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I fixed it. Thanks again, Skip.

                              Gary Ash
                              Dartmouth, MA
                              '48 M5
                              '65 Wagonaire Commander
                              '63 Wagonaire Standard
                              www.studegarage.com
                              Gary Ash
                              Dartmouth, Mass.

                              '32 Indy car replica (in progress)
                              ’41 Commander Land Cruiser
                              '48 M5
                              '65 Wagonaire Commander
                              '63 Wagonaire Standard
                              web site at http://www.studegarage.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The DOT standardized VIN's in the mid '70's, starting with the 1981 model year. Prior to this, the numbering system was left up to the manufacturer. This includes all foreign models as well. Prior to this, it was the states decision on how the car was titled.

                                Current VIN's show the country the vehicle was built in, types of restraint systems, engines, assembly plant, model, trim level (in some cases), and body style. Older 'serial numbers' could have some of this information, or a straight rolling counter from the assembly plant. Mostr cars, even foreign ones had a break point to designate one model year from another. This did not stop some states from titling some cars based on date sold, engine number, etc., right up until 1981.

                                Depending on your DMV, a little explaination will go along way with some DMV employees dealing with older cars. After explaining the issue with the "I" vs "1" deal (and having a copy of the Production Order), the Michigan Secretary of State made the necessary changes to correct the number when I submitted the old CA title for new. Some DMV's are easier to deal with than others, and the same can be said about their employees.

                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Tom - Lakeland, FL

                                1964 Studebaker Daytona

                                Michigan Speed - www.michiganspeed.com
                                Club Hot Rod - www.clubhotrod.com
                                LS1 Tech - www.ls1tech.com
                                Tom - Bradenton, FL

                                1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2514.10)
                                1964 Studebaker Commander - 170 1V, 3-Speed w/OD

                                Comment

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