Engine: Timing marks !!

[fiveftsix]

Hi everyone,
I`m at the stage of getting my 50 Champion 170 6 cyl running.
Well I did get it to run kinda, but not like I hoped.
Couldn`t get the timing mark anywhere near the pointer with a strobe and it was running like a dog no matter where I moved the Dizzy
Did a compression check and #3 had zero #2 60psi with all the rest 120 psi
So I pulled the head and found #3 inlet valve stuck wide open
While the head was off I turned the crank until #1 was at TDC on it`s compression stroke, only to find the timing marks 180 out
How`s that possible if there`s one crank bolt that`s offset ?
Also for the life of me I can`t figure out what the marking on the pulley UDC stands for ?
IN-OP must stand for inlet opening I guess but UDC ?
I`m more used to BTDC and ATDC
Anyone enlighten this dumb ole geezer !!!! lol
I have a new head gasket coming from Autozone Yep they have them Felpro and at a few pennies over $25 !!!!!!
Which I thought was a result !!!
So hopefully it will be running like as clock soon. ;o)
Geoff

[StudeRich]

UDC = Ultimate Dead Center.

IN-OP 1-6 = Intake Open 1 and 6.

Before & After: BTDC & ATDC mean nothing, it is TDC that matters.

Every other time the #1 Timing Mark shows UDC on a 4 Stroke engine, it will be on #1 Exhaust Stroke, and the next will be Compression. The True Test is whether BOTH Valves are closed, harder to see on a flathead.

If the Valves truly are closed, about the only possibility is that the Timing Marks are not aligned on the Crank & Cam, or the Fibre Cam Gear is stripped.

[BILT4ME]

I was looking at this on my 259 V8 wondering what those marks meant. So, is UDC=TDC?

Do our engines operate Clockwise (CW) or Counter-Clockwise (CCW) when sitting in the driver's seat? (So I can determine BTDC and ATDC.)

UDC = Ultimate Dead Center.

IN-OP 1-6 = Intake Open 1 and 6.

Before & After: BTDC & ATDC mean nothing, it is TDC that matters.

Every other time the #1 Timing Mark shows UDC on a 4 Stroke engine, it will be on #1 Exhaust Stroke, and the next will be Compression. The True Test is whether BOTH Valves are closed, harder to see on a flathead.

If the Valves truly are closed, about the only possibility is that the Timing Marks are not aligned on the Crank & Cam, or the Fibre Cam Gear is stripped.

[StudeRich]

All Engines I know of turn Clockwise from the Front, however our Distributors turn Counterclockwise.

I never look at my Timing Marks from the Driver's Seat.

ATDC, BTDC as I said never really matters, all you need to pay attention to when doing Ignition Timing is the Line at the "IGN" Mark.

If doing VALVE Timing its the UDC (TDC) Mark that counts, anything else just clouds your mind.

[fiveftsix]

Thanks Rich,
Ultimate Dead Center
Well I never, in all the years messing I have never ever come across that before.
Must be a Studebaker expression.
As to the timing marks out by 180 is it possible for the rubber damper to be shot and cause this ?
If the cam gear was stripped I doubt I`d manage to get it running and it all follows correctly by hand turning too.????
And was the cam gear fibre or Aluminum on a 51?
Going by the number it is a late 51 motor but has been rebuilt sometime in it`s life as it`s 40 over but it`s not seen much use since.
With the head off it`s pretty easy to follow the four strokes in relation to the valves opening and closing.
Geoff

[StudeRich]

No, the Studebaker vibration Damper Cushions can not cause a rotation, they are not made like a GM.

Yes, UDC is likely a Studebaker Engineering thing.

As I said in post #2, the Champions (and Most Studes.) did have a Fiber Cam Gear.

The chances are VERY slim that someone in the 1970's would have bought a Postal Zip Van, Taxi, Police, or H.D. Truck optional Aluminum Cam Gear used on '63-'64 OHV 6's or that it would even work.

[fiveftsix]

Hi Rich,
Interesting.
I just looked again and there are no bolts holding the damper on as can be seen in the manual !!!!!
What there is are kind of dowels in the place of bolts ??
There is a thin tin two hole plate under the crank bolt but that`s it nothing else!!!
Wonder what`s keeping that damper on there ???
Just the crank bolt ???
Geoff

[StudeRich]

There are Studs on the Pulley Hub that go through the Vibration Damper and should have 6 Nuts on them around the center Crank large Bolt, and as you said; the Hub is keyed to the Crank and can not turn.

[fiveftsix]

Oh Dear !!!!!
More work I think ????? lol

As can be seen no bolts and certainly no nuts !!!!
And you can just see the two hole plate again with nothing through the holes
And that damper is definitely 180 out
No1 at IGN position both valves closed and in last pic can just see no 6 inlet opening
The mind boggles if that hub is keyed on the crank and 180 out
That`s got to be a first !!!
I`ll leave it as is for the moment until I get the head back on and running again before I investigate that damper ???
For now I`ve put my own mark in it for strobe timing
Geoff

[fiveftsix]

Think I may have worked out what has happened here.
Looking at a parts book the Damper flywheel is not keyed to the crank only the hub is.
Now as Rich has mentioned it should have nuts holding it on but obviously they`ve sheared and if the cushions are shot maybe the damper can be put in any position ??
looks like I have another mission in hand to remove it all,replace all the broken studs and fit new damper cushions
Oh the joys of owning a Stude
Never a dull moment !!!!!
Geoff

[Dwain G.]

Unthreaded dowels are correct on your engine. The hub, belt pulley, and six dowels are all one assembly. Two of the dowels are slightly longer than the others to hold the sheet metal lock tab. there is a rubber insulator on each side of the damper, then a BIG washer (called a lock plate in the manuals) the sheet metal lock tab, and the big bolt.
Be aware, one of those dowels is offset a few degrees so that it will only install correctly in one position. However, if you are not aware of that it is certainly possible to install the damper incorrectly. The letters on the damper should face you and be readable from in front of the engine.
UDC was a fairly common term in pre-war years. Studebaker being an old line company tended to stick with old terminology sometimes. For instance, in the manuals a 'Dash' is what we would call a firewall. Dash is a holdover from the days of horse drawn wagons.

[Dan Timberlake]

I'm thinking the boys in the shop said UDC in place of Upper Dead Center.

It was the marketing crowd that would have come up with Ultimate Dead Center.
It is rather catchy.

[fiveftsix]

Dwain,
Thanks for the detailed breakdown.
Obviously there must be something amiss with the two extended dowels as the lock plate is not located correctly.
But now thanks to your post I will only have two dowels to check out or the possibility of the crank bolt being loose enough to allow the lock plate to move.
Otherwise it`s a complete replacement hub and pulley assembly I guess.
I will of course renew the rubber cushions at that time too.
For now I have put a chisel mark in the damper to denote IGN to aid timing.

Dan,
Catchy or not it would have been nice if they at least listed the UDC abbreviation at the front of any of there manuals.
I searched through all I have, to no avail.
Geoff

[Dwain G.]

Here's a couple pics of how it should look. Notice the short dowels don't quite come all the way through the lock plate. If yours appear to be too short it probably means the hub is not on all the way. It could be something assembled wrong, but quite likely the key 'rocked up' as the hub was being installed and is preventing the hub from seating properly.

[altair]

It would be impossible to mount the damper 180 degrees out. Your nut is not on all the way. When it is all the way home it will square up with the locking washer. There are no nuts or bolts to shear on a 6 there are however nuts and bolts on a V8. In one of the posts it is mentioned the key may have ridden up and stopped the assembly from going all the way on. Pull it off and check it. If your ignition pointer is out 180 then your oil pump has been removed and reinstalled 180 degrees out. The distributor runs off the oil pump if the assembly is out 180 simply remove the distributor and rotate it 180 and reinstall it. It can only go in one way or the other.
The oil pump can go on in any position if it is just assembled at random, however if you are fussy about the position it can be fiddled in to any position. What ever position it is, the distributor will assume that position. When #1 is in firing position the piston should be near top dead center with both valves closed and the damper should indicate IGN. The distributor rotor will be pointing at a wire terminal, that will be # 1. Confirm the rotor rotation, with the cap off bump the engine, the next position will be #5 then #3, 6, 2 and 4. When the timing is set it is good for ever, accept if somebody removes the distributor and reinserts it 180 degrees out or if somebody removes the oil pump and reinserts it. When you have done this once or twenty times it is a simple routine process.
Side note some Mercedes engines use offset keys for very fussy timing.