Front Axle / Front Suspension: Mustang II front end

[Springstreet]

[Treblig]

This might answer some of your questions:

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?88034-Silver-Hawk-Major-Modifications

Treblig

[t walgamuth]

First if it is all new, the car should settle on its springs with use. Also if using gas filled shocks they will lift it a little and if you did fronts and not backs it might be noticeable.

[Treblig]

It's also pretty easy to swap out the coil springs. I swapped mine out after I wasn't happy with the front end height and I still have the brand new ones that I removed. I know the spring rate, maybe they would lower your front end. I don't need them so I can sell at a bargain.

Treblig

[Mike Van Veghten]

Not meaning to rub anyone the wrong way...but...
Unless one has some reasonable suspension knowledge, you most likely won't gain much by just sticking on a different suspension. You need to understand what "each" thing in the suspension does, and how each thing reacts with each other thing as the chassis and suspension goes thru it's movements. Everything is a give and take, nothing here, "right" is free or easy in a situation like this.

I see/hear about all of these rack and pinion swaps and how well they are purported to work (in some cases). I'd bet in every one of them using the stock frame and control arms, I can prove it was a waste of time..! Not bragging, I just have some general knowledge how this stuff works.

Same goes for swapping in brand X suspension. Unless you really know your stuff, you could have a "cool" looking brand x suspension, but the car won't handle much, if any better than it did originally.

Not saying that no one can improve what's on the front of a Studebaker frame, because they can, I've just not read about it here...so far.
The word "bump-steer" comes up a lot. Most do not understand the whole idea of what bump-steer is and what the suspension goes thru. One hint...most if not all think that the only bump-steer check is in a straight line...!

Mike

[JoeHall]

Not meaning to rub anyone the wrong way...but...
Unless one has some reasonable suspension knowledge, you most likely won't gain much by just sticking on a different suspension. You need to understand what "each" thing in the suspension does, and how each thing reacts with each other thing as the chassis and suspension goes thru it's movements. Everything is a give and take, nothing here, "right" is free or easy in a situation like this.

I see/hear about all of these rack and pinion swaps and how well they are purported to work (in some cases). I'd bet in every one of them using the stock frame and control arms, I can prove it was a waste of time..! Not bragging, I just have some general knowledge how this stuff works.

Same goes for swapping in brand X suspension. Unless you really know your stuff, you could have a "cool" looking brand x suspension, but the car won't handle much, if any better than it did originally.

Not saying that no one can improve what's on the front of a Studebaker frame, because they can, I've just not read about it here...so far.
The word "bump-steer" comes up a lot. Most do not understand the whole idea of what bump-steer is and what the suspension goes thru. One hint...most if not all think that the only bump-steer check is in a straight line...!

Mike

I could not agree more!

[karterfred88]

Agree too. I've spent way too much time trying to just get rid of the awful power steering set up, only to conclude that unless you get a complete frame custom made, including IRS it still won't handle any better. Way too much front weight bias on an Avanti (original) and engine centerline placed too far forward of the front axle centerline, with no way to move it back without firewall and foot well butchery. The design of the body is way ahead of the chassis unfortunately.

[48skyliner]

"I see/hear about all of these rack and pinion swaps and how well they are purported to work (in some cases). I'd bet in every one of them using the stock frame and control arms, I can prove it was a waste of time..!"

I agree - can't imagine how you could make a really good handling car with that weird steering arrangement that Studebaker used. If you want to spend the time and money to put a lot of different parts into the front end, I think you should start with a car that A) is a good handling car B) has dual a-frame suspension or equivalent with rack and pinion steering and C) has the entire front suspension and steering mounted on a crossmember or subframe which you can install into the Studebaker. This will eliminate any issues with bump steer - the big issue then is that the engine has to fit, maybe modifying the oil pan etc. There is a good reason so many high quality street rods these days have late model Corvette suspension.

Some folks figured this out a long time ago - it must be 25 years or more since Sonny Wisner built his 55 coupe with all Corvette suspension, and the newer Corvettes are much better yet.


This is just one of several articles that explain bump steer: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/ctrp-1001-bump-steer-explained/

[Springstreet]

Mustang II suspension

"I see/hear about all of these rack and pinion swaps and how well they are purported to work (in some cases). I'd bet in every one of them using the stock frame and control arms, I can prove it was a waste of time..!"

I agree - can't imagine how you could make a really good handling car with that weird steering arrangement that Studebaker used. If you want to spend the time and money to put a lot of different parts into the front end, I think you should start with a car that A) is a good handling car B) has dual a-frame suspension or equivalent with rack and pinion steering and C) has the entire front suspension and steering mounted on a crossmember or subframe which you can install into the Studebaker. This will eliminate any issues with bump steer - the big issue then is that the engine has to fit, maybe modifying the oil pan etc. There is a good reason so many high quality street rods these days have late model Corvette suspension.

Some folks figured this out a long time ago - it must be 25 years or more since Sonny Wisner built his 55 coupe with all Corvette suspension, and the newer Corvettes are much better yet.


This is just one of several articles that explain bump steer: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/ctrp-1001-bump-steer-explained/

[48skyliner]

If you have seen the thread on my 48 Champion, you know we went far beyond what most people would do, but in the situation you are describing, the important thing Sean did in installing the Skyline front clip was to set up the front suspension with the wheels and tires we planned to use and set the ride height exactly where we wanted on a rolling table. We then put the car on my post lift and adjusted the height to mate exactly where we wanted it. We did the rear suspension the same way. Our ride height is approximately 1 1/2 inches below stock Studebaker, front and rear.

[t walgamuth]

I don't see why the original suspension in front would not work well if all parts are renewed and aligned correctly.

I used the mustang 2 style from fat man on my 39 CE....of course that has rack and pinion and vented disc brakes with power steering. I have not been able to drive it yet but I am hoping it will drive as well as a 90 something half ton pickup. I think my fat man setup with steering and brakes was about $2500 fob indiana. If you start adding things up, such as disc brakes on the front CE suspension etc. you'll soon reach that amount. The fat man has a great rep so when I want to sell it should be a plus.

To me the biggest things on the mustang 2 is the modern brakes, the steering and the ball joints instead of kingpins.

I have driven my ce now enough to comment on how it drives. It meets or exceeds my hopes and handles as good or better than a more modern pickup. I agree that if I had it to do over I'd probably spend another 500 or so to get either the air bags or coil overs so ride height could be adjustable.

[karterfred88]

To get the exact height you want you'll need to have custom made coils, the originals are for the much heavier Stude block and if cutting one coil off set the ride height you liked but bottomed out, the only solution is a custom coil-same installed height at what you like but with stiffer wire to keep it up. That will affect ride-stiffening it a little. There is no ready made one for the weight combination you have in the vehicle you have with the original suspension, although going through the Moog catalogue you may luck into finding the right one, after many tries. Someone like http://www.coilsprings.com/ might be able to make ones that do what you want. As to installing a Mustang II clip I can't answer your questions. It has been done on Larks and Hawks, I'm sure someone has done it on an Avanti but they may not be on the forum to answer your questions. The other question that comes to mind, is, depending on the state you live in, you may no longer be driving an Avanti II but a modified or custom car, leading to different registration problems.

[Mike Van Veghten]

Spring -

No "bump steer"..?
Again, JUST welding on anyone's Mustang II suspension, may have lightened their car a little, but made it handle better...if that's what you feel, I guess that's good for you..!
The car that those front ends came on...didn't handle all that well, what makes them suddenly handle better when transplanted to another chassis ?
Would make all the work I went to, to put the C4 Corvette front end on my 60 Lark wagon, a huge waste of time..!?!


Mike

[48skyliner]

There are numerous sources for "Mustang II" style front suspensions, several of which come with adjustable coilover shocks. I can't understand why anyone would buy something that is not adjustable for ride height unless you know exactly what you need. The people who build these suspensions can certainly tell you what spring rate you need if you just tell them the front end weight of the car.

[Treblig]

I don't know if this helps but I used a Mustang II front cross member (Johnny Law) on my '59 Silver hawk. It came with 325 lb springs. They were too weak for the Hawk front end so I replaced them with 425 lb springs. Now the car sits much better and rides as nice as original. I have a Chevy 350 with a 700R4 installed in the Hawk.

treblig