Increasing HP on the 1950 Flat Head Six

[alex54]

Cathcart was mentioned earlier. Does anyone have the specs to which he built the 170? The only info I found was about the aluminum head/dual exhaust/dual carb. But what about the cam specs? The head's compression ratio? Any porting? Off the shelf standard pistons, NOS custom (like the 1955 article), new custom? The list goes on.

[PackardV8]

Cathcart was mentioned earlier. Does anyone have the specs to which he built the 170? The only info I found was about the aluminum head/dual exhaust/dual carb. But what about the cam specs? The head's compression ratio? Any porting? Off the shelf standard pistons, NOS custom (like the 1955 article), new custom? The list goes on.

The Champion is just another flathead and responds albiet weakly to all of the above. Naturally, Cathcart, selling his expertise, did not broadcast widely the finer points of his builds, but there is/was no magic bean.

That additional Champion horsepower are the most expensive to buy was shown by Cathcart's $5,000 builds. BTW, I drove a car with one of his high-dollar 170" engines and it was no stronger in normal driving than a good 185". It did pull more strongly from 3,500 - 4,500 RPMs, but the owner always got nervous when winding it up to where his money bought more horsepower. I know I'd have to have a long talk with the owner before taking on a Champion performance build, because of the likelihood of disappointment.

Bottom line - a performance engine shop with experience in flatheads and older stuff can build a Champion. It's just most CASOs don't want to pay for that level of precision and expertise for the few additional horsepower resultant.

A $5,000 170" Champion build might make 110 horsepower. A $5,000 Studebaker V8 build might make 300 horsepower and a $5000 Chevy 400" build would make 400 horsepower. However, for some of us, it's not about horsepower-per-dollar. I prefer to build and drive Studebaker and Packard V8s, even though I know it's not the most cost-effective decision.

As always, your car, your money, your decision.

jack vines

[RadioRoy]

Actually, my point was more about being able to stop. Running at freeway speeds is way past the abilities of 50 Champion brakes.

[garyash]

[Lothar]

Several people have suggested swapping out the 1950 170 C. I. engine for a 185 C. I. engine. I considered that, but I was told that the oil pans are different and not interchangeable. I thought I understood (but am not certain) that the position of the sump is reversed and that the 185 oil pan is deeper to provide clearance for the cam. Is that correct?

[Lamar]

Mr. Ash I would be interested in the hp and torque comparisons at 2000 to 2500 rpm in that build if you have them. Lamar

[garyash]

Check the graph. The hp at 2000 rpm is 75 and at 2500 is about 90. The torque is pretty flat around 190 ft-lbs.

I went back and tried it with a turbocharger or supercharger, using the 1/8" larger intake valve and a 400 cfm carb (small 4-barrel). All it needs is about 2 psi of boost to kick up the horsepower significantly. It's above 90 hp at 2000 rpm, and 175 hp at 4000 rpm. The torque is up at about 250 ft-lbs over the whole range. If you used the 185 block with the larger crankshaft bearings, it might be OK. Still, it wouldn't be a good idea to push the old Champ block too hard. One hp/cubic inch would be very good for a flathead. More boost didn't help that much, perhaps 5 psi reached the limits, but 2 psi was plenty to stuff the fuel/air mixture into the chambers. Dropping the compression ratio back to 6.5:1 lost horsepower, so 8:1 or 8.5:1 is good. So, a small turbo or an old Paxton/McCulloch blower would work just fine. I think "Digger Dave" Molnar converted his M5 to a turbocharger last year; I've been looking for my photos but can't find them.

Bill Cathcart did run his early Lark with a blown engine for a while. He said it ran great until the day it blew up...

[mbstude]

Several people have suggested swapping out the 1950 170 C. I. engine for a 185 C. I. engine. I considered that, but I was told that the oil pans are different and not interchangeable. I thought I understood (but am not certain) that the position of the sump is reversed and that the 185 oil pan is deeper to provide clearance for the cam. Is that correct?

First I've heard of all of that. There's a local '50 Champion running a 185. The oil pans would be different, but there's no reason why they won't swap out.

[RadioRoy]

First I've heard of all of that. There's a local '50 Champion running a 185. The oil pans would be different, but there's no reason why they won't swap out.

The 185 has larger main bearings than the early 170 so the cut outs in both ends of the pan are larger diameter. The 50 Champion had a unique oil pan shape to accommodate the steering system.

Studebaker service parts released a special oil pan for the express purpose of putting a 185 into a 50 Champion. It had the 50 unique shape, along with the larger diameter bearing ends. (cut-out is not really the proper term.)

You can either find one of those special oil pans, or cut the bearing openings from the 185 pan and weld them to the 50 pan.

Don't let that stop you from finding and installing a 185 into your 50. That is the all around best bet for increasing horsepower.

[Studebaker Ron]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41153[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]41154[/ATTACH]

I had no idea that you could get so much power out of the 170. Could you run the numbers and see what dual carbs, cam grind and 1960 head will do. As for pistons I can only find them .060 over so if you know who has them 1/8th over let me know.

Ron

[Lamar]

Thanks, Mr Ash. Lamar

[mbstude]

The 185 has larger main bearings than the 170 so the cut outs in both ends of the pan are larger diameter. The 50 Champion had a unique oil pan shape to accommodate the steering system.

Studebaker service parts released a special oil pan for the express purpose of putting a 185 into a 50 Champion. It had the 50 unique shape, along with the larger diameter bearing ends. (cut-out is not really the proper term.)

You can either find one of those special oil pans, or cut the bearing openings from the 185 pan and weld them to the 50 pan.

Don't let that stop you from finding and installing a 185 into your 50. That is the all around best bet for increasing horsepower.

That makes sense, thanks Roy. Now that I think about it more, the 185 in that car is a service engine.

[garyash]

I dug through my bookshelf and pulled out a couple of old books put together by Dick Datson about 1990 from material he previously published in his newsletters. Back in the old days, Dick was very into modified Studebakers and eventually into turbocharging big time. Along the way, though, Dick became unhappy with SDC folks and parted company. His books collected a lot of information put together by many Studebaker owners about parts interchanges, maintenance, and modifications. I have "Studebaker Technical Tips" and "The Studebaker Extreme Duty Engine" but I don't have his "169-185 Studebaker Six Cylinder Engine Book". Anyone interested in modified Studebaker engines should look for copies of these at swap meets or on Ebay. I'm not sure if Dick is still around. It would be good to reprint the books, but it isn't likely that permission would be forthcoming.

Anyway, Dick did cover a lot of things that can be done to the Champ 6, as well as the V8s. He especially liked adding a turbocharger to the Champ 6, like a Garrett TO3 from a Chrysler 2.2 or 2.5 liter 4-cylinder engine or other small import engine. These seem to add a lot to low end torque and horsepower, especially at 5 psi or more of boost but 2-3 psi is enough. You can stay with the standard valve sizes (use stainless valves, though) and compression in the 7.0-8.0 range. Add about 300-400 cfm of carburetor (small 4-barrel?) and dual exhausts. Egge offers pistons up to 0.100" oversize as a standard product for the Champ 6. Jerry Kurtz recommends Arias forged pistons for serious engines, and they can probably make them to any size, but 0.060" is as far as one should go without risking cylinder wall failure or blown head gaskets.

If you don't go the turbo route, then upping the compression to 8.3-8.5, two carbs, a cam, and dual exhausts will get 90% of what can be had. This should give 65-75 hp at 2000 rpm and 125-135 hp at 4000 rpm. If you want to wind it up to 5000-6000 rpm (at your risk!), use 400-500 cfm of carb and a bigger inlet valve, but idle may be tricky. The old sprint cars using Champ engines wound them up tight, but they weren't driving them on the street.

[HUDSONBROTHER1]

I've been told that a .060 overbore is max for Champ motors. The early 170 motors had small mains. The later 170 & 185 both had big mains and the same diameter.Just about any cam grinder can put a hotter grind on your cam. You will need new or resurfaced lifters and possibly stiffer or shimmed valve springs.

[jclary]

Lots of info to digest here. As a humble tinkerer, I've been reluctant to monkey around with much more than how these little engines were originally designed. Honing, and minor bearing size, pistons, etc, just to clean up, is all I have dared to do. When looking at these six cylinder bores...the way they are arranged in "pairs," it looks like they already have a natural tendency for "hot-spots" where the cylinders are very closely paired. That would make it even more important to make sure to clean the water jackets as thoroughly as possible when performing a serious overbore and modifying the engine for more horsepower. Just my thoughts.

In my young and foolish days (1965), I drove my '49 flathead six Plymouth on some rather long trips between home (South Carolina) and my Air Base in Illinois. Although the temp gauge never showed above normal, keeping that little six wound up on that long a trip, always burned a valve. In retrospect, I wonder if the engine developed a "hot spot" that led to burning the valve. It could have been affected by carburetor adjustment (too lean or rich) but the blasted little thing ran too good for much to be out of adjustment.

The 185 six in my '55 truck is very tired since my last refresh about 39 years ago. To increase power, I'm thinking about adding two more cylinders. (259/289).