Cool/Heat: Possibly the dumb question of the week...

[Mike Van Veghten]

Ok...beat me up if you will but...

As some know, I'm rebuilding one of my 54 wagons into a daily driver. While finishing up work on a Stude intake manifold, I noticed a large Modine radiator box under my porting bench. It's got an old two row radiator from my Suburban, a 4 row replacement came in the box.
In measuring the core support in the 54, a Lark radiator won't even fit without a hack saw doing its duty on the core support.
Since I'd have to start hacking things up anyway, has anyone gone to the extreem of cutting off the frame horns, welding them back on a few inches further apart ? I know that the same would have to be done to the bumper brackets.. add a little body work to the inner fenders, etc.

While the three row radiator in my 59 Lark, "just" keeps things cool, only going over 200 on 100+ degree days in traffic, I'd like the 54 to be "concern" free on these 100 degree days. I'm not sure the little stock dimensioned radiator will do this on 100+ degree days in 20mph freeway traffic...
A nice three row aluminum...all the way across the car would be nice...

Sanity check...am I too far off base here ?

Thanks

Mike

[PackardV8]

It's taken a long time for some of us to get over the idea 200 degrees is just on the low side of normal. Many of the later GMs don't even turn on the electric fan til 230 degrees.

I personally wouldn't cut up that critical part which locates the entire front sheet metal.

There are a couple of shops which will make custom rads to your measurements for not that much. Call US Radiator. One of their custom brass units is cooling my Packard V8 with the AC condenser in front of it.

jack vines

[JoeHall]

Mike,
I put the cooling system second only to brakes, and like your idea of over engineering the radiator. Much better too big than too small or even marginal.
Brass & copper, modern cores are light years ahead of OEM cores, and a modern 5/8" tube, 65-70 count X 3 is equal to about a 5-row OEM, except S-P never made one.

But if you are looking at a humongous radiator, and planning to modify the car to fit the radiator, it would be interesting to hear the outcome.

[mmagic]

I used 240Z ? radiator in my Champ. great fit without modification and something like 30% more core thickness. I understand that several Jeep radiators are an even better fit... just make sure you get a thicker one than your OEM.... The Champ runs down right cold, even when following bunch of horses in a parade.

I used a 280Z in my Speedster but had to modify the inlet outlet tubes to clear the fan shroud.

(And these were about $160 less Advanced online order, pick up at the store 20% discount.)

[JLB]

Ok...beat me up if you will but...

As some know, I'm rebuilding one of my 54 wagons into a daily driver. While finishing up work on a Stude intake manifold, I noticed a large Modine radiator box under my porting bench. It's got an old two row radiator from my Suburban, a 4 row replacement came in the box.
In measuring the core support in the 54, a Lark radiator won't even fit without a hack saw doing its duty on the core support.
Since I'd have to start hacking things up anyway, has anyone gone to the extreem of cutting off the frame horns, welding them back on a few inches further apart ? I know that the same would have to be done to the bumper brackets.. add a little body work to the inner fenders, etc.

While the three row radiator in my 59 Lark, "just" keeps things cool, only going over 200 on 100+ degree days in traffic, I'd like the 54 to be "concern" free on these 100 degree days. I'm not sure the little stock dimensioned radiator will do this on 100+ degree days in 20mph freeway traffic...
A nice three row aluminum...all the way across the car would be nice...

Sanity check...am I too far off base here ?

Thanks

Mike

Mike, P.M. sent to you.

[StudeNewby]

I used 240Z ? radiator in my Champ. great fit without modification and something like 30% more core thickness. I understand that several Jeep radiators are an even better fit... just make sure you get a thicker one than your OEM.... The Champ runs down right cold, even when following bunch of horses in a parade.

I used a 280Z in my Speedster but had to modify the inlet outlet tubes to clear the fan shroud.

(And these were about $160 less Advanced online order, pick up at the store 20% discount.)

Merlin,
What year was that 240Z radiator?

[Mike Van Veghten]

First, putting any "other" brand...of the "same size" does nothing for me or the engine.

Jack -
I looked closely at that last night. The front inner fender panel supports would stay intact. They are far enough back, that I would'nt mess with that.
I would be cutting the current core support, frame supports away though. But that's exactly where the extra core would be.
And yea, understand about the 200 degree deal you mention, and don't worry when my Larks temp. gets there, because it's never gone "over" 200, except for one time WAY back with the two row radiator that was in it.

As noted, I'd just like the gauge to not ever go over the 200/210..ever...
And the little radiator in that front end...????

I do have a brand new aluminum, high fin count radiator for it. Maybe I'll go a head and give it a try. I'm also going to talk to the guy that built the radiator I have (Radiator Lady) and ask about the next size up core width. Go from there.

Mike

[jnormanh]

NAPA has a radiator parts book which has drawings and dimensions, including brackets, hose diameters, etc for every radiator they supply, hundreds of them.
They'll let you thumb through it, and you'll likely find a direct bolt in with more capacity than stock. Saves many hours of salvage yard searching.

[jclary]

"Other brand"????...What would that Suburban radiator be? In getting good cooling...it is not always the size that matters. (Not to be beating up on you, nor condescending...because you probably know more of this than I do.) For cooling, it is always a matter of "Heat transfer efficiency." Not only for the size of the radiator, but the volume of air flow, direction of air flow, condition of the water passages (clean or clogged), water pump, etc. Those cars rolled off the assembly engineered to cool efficiently and, for the most part, did the job.

We have had many conversations about cooling systems, replacement radiators, core sand, rusty core wires, bad thermostats, gasket thickness, fans, fan shrouds, etc...
If any of these components are defective...the biggest radiator you could hacksaw and hammer in place...probably won't solve the problem.

By the way, Mike...I've been fooling with these things for decades, and have never had one "CONCERN FREE." The closest I get to that is after arriving back home in one...under its own power. Then I'm concern free 'till I start thinking about the next drive.

[Mike Van Veghten]

John (jclary) -

Note...the "same size"...words in the first sentence..!

The Suburban radiator is MUCH larger than the Stude radiator. Though I won't run a side flow because the tanks use up too much room in the available space, core wise.

Well...I've had pretty much concern free cars in the past. Plan on this one being simillar.

I had a 67, Chevy II wagon that I put together that had a hard time getting to come UP to a good running temperature. In the winter, I had to block off about 1/3rd of the radiator to get it to run even 180 degrees. So yes...too much radiator CAN make a concern free car...water temp wise.

Mike

[rodnutrandy]

I just 2 weeks ago exchanged my 3 row brass radiator for a 2 row aluminum radiator. ( both 66 Mustang radiators . ) I also made sure no air could go around the radiator and installed a high flow water pump .Where my m series truck was running about 192 degrees down the road , it now runs 177 degrees ( 180 stat ) . My electric fan does a better job in traffic ,keeping it about 190 where It went 210 before . Not saying put the Mustang radiator in , but those 2 row ,1 inch tubes do make a world of difference . ( temp here is in the 80s . ) I don't think you can have too much radiator , but don't think you need that large if you go the correct route

[thebigdaddyo]

I would not cut to fit a radiator. Aluminum ones cool better at smaller sizes and core width and are all over. Another thing to consider is you are in Socal, where anti-freeze/coolant is not needed. Coolant cannot dissipate heat, so essentially you can increase your capacity by 50% by eliminating the coolant. I put WaterWetter in all of my rides, one or two bottles depending on engine, and water. (it has anti-rust properties too) I realize you essentially lower the boiling point by not having coolant, but I would rather insure my vehicle does not get that hot to begin with. With this setup, I have sat in bumper-to-bumper traffic on the harbor fwy in 105 degree weather in a 50 Ford Business Coupe with a hopped up flathead and it never got above 180 degrees and they run notoriously hot!

[Mike Van Veghten]

randy -

Thanks, as noted, I'll give the new little radiator a fighting chance. See what happens and go from there.

Mike


big -

I understand about running coolant, what it does and doesn't. I normally run about a 20%/25% mix, mostly to keep the corrosion at bey and to help lube the water pump seals.

As for Water Wetter (and the many like it)...na, been there done that. Not...doing it again. Funny how the FAA banned that type substance MANY years ago from water cooled aircraft. I read the paper from the FAA. On one hand it does what it's supposed to. On the other hand, it insulates the metal from transfering the heat properly.
I've seen this on both cast iron and aluminum.

Mike

[GinettaG12P]

randy -

Thanks, as noted, I'll give the new little radiator a fighting chance. See what happens and go from there.

Mike


big -

I understand about running coolant, what it does and doesn't. I normally run about a 20%/25% mix, mostly to keep the corrosion at bey and to help lube the water pump seals.

As for Water Wetter (and the many like it)...na, been there done that. Not...doing it again. Funny how the FAA banned that type substance MANY years ago from water cooled aircraft. I read the paper from the FAA. On one hand it does what it's supposed to. On the other hand, it insulates the metal from transfering the heat properly.
I've seen this on both cast iron and aluminum.

Mike

I read that the FAA banned the transport of Water Wetter by air, but I have not seen an article in which the FAA banned the use of "water wetters" in aircraft engines. Could you please provide a link to the FAA report that you allude to. Thanks.