Engine: Why I picked a 305 instead of a 350

[pbrown]

On another thread a lot of people were disparaging the GM 305 engine that I have.

I feel that if you are going to run it in stock condition on the street, it's a pretty good lump -especially for the price (everyone has heard that a 350 is better, right? - so the price of a lowly 305 is lowly as well!)

I stole this from the Camaro forum. It basically says what I said, but gives details why:

ifmodded TPI set up is the way to go ect, it's primarily because most of the time people are talking about using them on the 350s. For the 305 the stock TPI intake is pretty decent. This is why the hp ratings for the 350 and the 305 are so much closer than one would expect - it's just a better match for the 305 in its stock form. When they were designing the TPI intake their designs was based off of the 305's air flow data as rumor was GM was uncertain about the 350s future due to the emissions regulations. Because of this, it has been noted that swapping on larger runners onto a 305's TPI system yields marginal gains on the dyno. The biggest short falling of the LB9s were its camshafts. The 2 cams offered for the LB9 were terrible one even earning the nickname the "peanut cam." The sad thing is even using the slightly less crappy cam offered an additional 25 hp over the "peanut cam." With a good cam and full exhaust system (headers, high flow cat, with a performance cat back of your choice) it would not be unreasonable to expect around 270 hp with nearly 400 ftlbs of torque out of an otherwise stock LB9"

[doug]

Looks like you have done some homework.

[Mike Van Veghten]

As another here says, "your money, your car".
This would not be my choise, as the 700-R4 would not be again. Just like GM decided, I didn't like the gear ratios.

Now not ALL...305's would be on my DO NOT USE list. I know of a coupla 305/306/307's out in the drag racing world that run very well. There's different way's of making that cubic inch combination.

Mike

[sweetolbob]

The 305 is considered the "red headed stepchild" of the SBC world generally as it is 45 cubes smaller than a 350 and costs the same or more to rebuild.

You have a 305, they are from the SBC family, and they make enough power and run well enough to not embarrass the marque. I don't know of anyone that would chose a 305 over a 350 if given the choice at all things equal except someone that is limited to a class by cubic inches or has it on-hand. Heck, I had a 350 in my 70's era Chevrolet C-10 and that was the worst POS low mileage and performance engine known to mankind. An 89 305 would have run circles around that thing.

That said, I put a nice cam (Recommended by Weiand) into a 305 with big valve heads and a decent CR into my 39 Ford coupe and it would remind you of the smaller cube SBC's the way it revved and ran. So it doesn't need a lot of justification as you already have it, just install it and enjoy the upgrade.

Bob

[studegary]

I have owned many cars with these engines. I have bought new and used cars with a 305 and used cars with a 350. I can not remember any serious problems with either. With that said, I found the 305 to be insufficient for any car weighing as much as a Camaro or Avanti. There is no substitution for cubic inches. That extra 15% is noticeable.

[pbrown]

I don't know of anyone that would chose a 305 over a 350 if given the choice at all things equal

You've hit the nail on the head. "all things equal" - in this case the inequality was a serious difference in price.

If I had not been offered a TPI 305 including the labor to install it in my Hawk for less that I would have to pay for an uninstalled 350, I'd have a 350 right now.

But the research I did before pulling the trigger convinced me that in stock form, the 305 was an OK budget choice.

As soon as I make the first upgrade for extra HP, the 305 is at a disadvantage in HP/$. Almost immediately the 350 becomes the way to go.

But once again I'm keeping it stock. If I want more horsepower, I would yank and replace it with a 350 before I spent the first dollar on hot rodding the 305.

But as to stock, Here are some specs from Camaros of that era:

1. V-8 5.0L (305CI) 4 Barrel Carb 170HP@4400 and 250Ft/lbs@2800
2. V-8 5.0L 4 Barrel Carb HO 190HP@4800 and 240Ft/lbs@3200
3. V-8 5.0L Tune Port Injection 215HP@4400 and 295ft/lbs@3200
4. V-8 5.7L Tune Port Injection 225HP@4200 and 330ft/lbs@2800

While the 350 makes marginally more power than the 305 to start with, it is much cheaper/easier to hot rod.

But if you aren't going to hot rod, a 305 is a dependable moderately high powered engine. Not the first choice perhaps, but not a poor choice.

[studegary]

But as to stock, Here are some specs from Camaros of that era:

1. V-8 5.0L (305CI) 4 Barrel Carb 170HP@4400 and 250Ft/lbs@2800
2. V-8 5.0L 4 Barrel Carb HO 190HP@4800 and 240Ft/lbs@3200
3. V-8 5.0L Tune Port Injection 215HP@4400 and 295ft/lbs@3200
4. V-8 5.7L Tune Port Injection 225HP@4200 and 330ft/lbs@2800

While the 350 makes marginally more power than the 305 to start with, it is much cheaper/easier to hot rod.

But if you aren't going to hot rod, a 305 is a dependable moderately high powered engine. Not the first choice perhaps, but not a poor choice.

I haven't thought of these spec. numbers for some time. It really strikes me that none of these engines, including the 350 cid, have more horsepower than the normally aspirated 3.2 V6 in my 2001 Acura coupe that is probably lighter than a Camaro or your Hawk.

[pbrown]

I read an article a back in like 2008 that has really stuck with me.

It compared "supercars" of the 80s to family sedans of the 2008 era.

A number of V6 family cars had better all round specs (hp, 0-60, handling) than a lot of the supercars.

Take Magnum PI's Ferrari as an example:

1982 Ferrari 308 GTS 0-60 mph 7.2 Quarter mile 15.6

I was driving a 2006 Hyundai Sonata at the time.

2006 Hyundai Sonata LX (V6) 0-60 mph 6.5 Quarter Mile 15.1

After I read the article I was hunting for old Ferraris to embarrass!

Never found one tho...




And that was before the latest round of affordable HP wars (V8 Mustangs and Camaros)

Time (and increased HP) marches on...

[Reggie]

From now on, tell everyone it's a 302. Use the GM hi rise intake and GM finned aluminum valve covers, a #3849346 mechanical lifter cam, and an 8" harmonic balancer. They will be VERY impressed.

[BobWaitz]

There is no substitution for cubic inches.

Sure there is. It's called a supercharger.

[(S)]

I once had a 1970 Small block chevy 307 with an overbore, cam , 4 bbl and duals that ran really strong for a long while. They are not bad at all.

[53commander]

I was always quite fond of the 305. I hot rodded several back in the 80's and always enjoyed the look of surprise on the faces of the 327 and 350 guys when my cars beat theirs.

[pbrown]

Not that Wikipedia is always the Gospel truth, but Wikipedia says:

The Chevrolet 305 is a reliable, fuel efficient V8, easily capable of 200,000 miles, if maintained. The initial 2-barrel Rochester 2GC carbureted variants of the 305 were underwhelming, to say the least, pushing anywhere between 120 and 130 hp. From 1976 onward into the early 1980s, these engines were also prone to wearing out their camshaft's lobes very prematurely due to a combination of improper manufacturing and reduced/poor quality controls, (a result of GM Cost-Cutting Measures). The 305 engine is sometimes dismissed in performance circles because of its "lack of power", its small bore size, and difficulty flowing large volumes of air at higher rpms; however, two variants of the '83-'92 305 were notable performers, especially when in comparison to most of the other "performance engines" of that time: the '83-'88 L69 "High Output 5.0L" and the '85-'92 LB9 "Tuned Port Injection 5.0L".

And the one I was offered was indeed one of the "two variants of the '83-'92 305 that were notable performers" - an 89 LB9 Tuned Port Injection 5.0L.

Since the price was right, it became mine!

[Skybolt]

I once had a 1970 Small block chevy 307 with an overbore, cam , 4 bbl and duals that ran really strong for a long while. They are not bad at all.

My first GM V8 was a 307 in a Holden Premier Station Wagon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_HK It weighed 3300 lbs but some work was done by the previous owner and I was able to send the speedometer needle off the clock and bouncing at 230 KPH. It might not have been a good conversion to KPH speedometer when the country changed over. If it was truly going off the end of the gauge then the old scale was 120 mph but I still tell people that I wound it off the end and it read 230+ kph but it was at a guess 130 mph. Still that 307 was a wicked engine. After I sold it to a friend and he beat it to death he sold it to another friend who after a few years changed it out for a reconditioned 307 and it was a slug compared to what he pulled out. That's when we put two and two together. It must have had some work or maybe it was a 327. I have no idea of the history. I just ended up with the car.

My friend has a boat and it had a 305 and he was getting a new engine fitted and had the choice of a 305 or a 350 for a few dollars more. I had just swapped out a spun bearing 280K mile 305 for a rebuilt 350 in a 1985 K5 Blazer and it was like chalk and cheese. As he was a civil engineer and didn't know much about engines he consulted me and I recommended the 350. After had the screw re-pitched for the engine he was getting many more miles out of each tank and could cruise at a higher knot on his regular trips to Catalina. He was most pleased.

Just my observations.

Len.

[pbrown]

Sure there is. It's called a supercharger.

Or maybe a Tuned Port Induction system on a SBC 305?

"The thing about the theory behind why the TPI system was so successful is they tuned the runner length such that the high pressure pulses that were generated by closing intake valves were reflected back into the plenum before being again reflected back down the runner to the intake valve just as it was opening at certain RPMs. This in effect forces air in to the cylinder (kinda of like a weak form of forced induction) The problem is these long runners target lower RPMs. This is why TPI motors are known to generate big block torque but in the high RPMs tend to die off"

I tend to die off at higher RPMs myself. I had a 2011 Mustang that had 412hp, but you had to rev the dickens out of it to get full hp. Only rarely did that opportunity present itself.