Exhaust: broken exhaust manifold bolt

[southbend]

'50 Commander engine (Land Cruiser). One exhaust manifold bolt is broken off flush with the block (the one at the front of the block, if it matters). Mechanic thinks the head might have to come off to properly extract the bolt but he isn't sure. I haven't been able to find anything in the shop manual about this, however. This mechanic works on older cars (he owns a '58 Corvette and a '64 T-Bird) and has a good reputation in the area but isn't a "Studebaker expert" (his words). He's also concerned about the other bolts breaking off when trying to remove them, even with soaking them, etc., which he says could get expensive. Since he has no idea how complicated the job might turn out, he said he didn't feel comfortable giving me even a ballpark estimate. And I understand that. So, how bad a situation am I in with this broken bolt? What's been your experience with similar situations?

BTW, this isn't the same car I posted about earlier this week with the automatic transmission. I bought this one last year. Probably won't pursue the one with the A/T since this problem surfaced. Was thinking of selling this current one since I prefer A/T and the one I have is 3 speed w/OD. Might still try to sell this one "as is" anyway since I don't have tons of money to pour into a hobby car.

Thanks for your help.

[CHIEF BLAZE]

Hi Southbend: Many years go I read about a guy who would arc weld a bolt head to the top of the broken stud. It may have been in (Hot Rod Mag.) According to the article, it didn't damage the block but allowed the broken stud to be extracted. Perhaps the heat from the weld, in conjunction with the penetrating oil, is what did the trick.

I found a U tube How to do It which shows this process. Best part...you don't have to buy anything your cost will be what your mechanic charges you.) I suggest you take a look at this video and share it with your mechanic before thinking about removing that head.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BFUfGKU_ts

Lots of Luck

C/B

[skyway]

Not trying to be a smart alek, but unless I am mistaken, there is no stud in what looks to be the very front spot on the intake/exhaust assembly on those engines?
Any chance that this is what you are seeing?

[RadioRoy]

I wonder why he would suggest removing the head to get at a manifold stud.

Anyway, I just checked mine and Skyway is correct. the holes at the extreme ends of the manifold have no studs drilled into the block. If the manifold is still on the engine, you can just leave it alone. The extreme ends of the manifolds are drilled, but the block is not. I always though it looked odd, but that's the way they are.

[Henry Votel]

BTDT - FYI from one of my favorite sites:

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/broken-bolt-stud-addition.html

[southbend]

Thanks again to all for responding so quickly. The car is at the mechanic's shop 20 miles away so I can't check it. I've been looking at the chassis manual and it lists the stud but doesn't show it on the exploded illustration that I can see, so I can't tell where it (they? there must be more than one to hold that entire assembly to the block?) is/are located. I wonder why the holes on the manifold and no studs? It does seem strange.What got all this started is a bad exhaust leak. Car idles really rough (I'm assuming that's related to the leak) and sounds like a freight train, so it needs fixing. I assumed a bolt was broken off since the exhaust leak is at that spot on the block where that front hole in the manifold is. The leak became visible to me the first cold day this past winter, and you can see the exhaust soot on the side of the head just above that spot. I think I recall seeing one bolt head located in the middle of the assembly. I'll let the mechanic know about this odd situation. Am open to hearing from others with their thoughts, tips, suggestions.

Regarding removing the head. He said it might be necessary to set whatever tool he uses to drill out the stud, if all else failed. This guy seems honest and seems like he knows what he's doing. He did mention to me the solutions offered by Chief Blaze and Mr. Votel. But maybe I should find another mechanic?

Again, really appreciate all the help. Maybe it's not as bad as I first thought? Hope so, anyway.

[starliner62]

If it is a broken stud, weld a nut on it as previously stated. I use a MIG welder, a nut a little larger that the hole and fill the nut with weld. The wire will not stick to cast iron. I average a couple of broken bolts a week with my noisy, vibrating Fedex trucks.

[Dan Timberlake]

the moment after If I encounter nuts that are stuck I heat each one some shade of red with an oxy acetylene torch just before slipping on 6 pt socket to remove it. Since getting my O/A torch I have broken VERY few studs. Nuts that refused to move when cold unwind without a whimper while real hot, then start to squeak in protest when about half off. Usually the stud threads that were under the nut just need the rust wire brushed off or chased with a die.

Regarding the stub in the block - Heating a bolt or stud red hot for a while crushes and breaks the rust between it and the block/head/manifold and makes it 1000% more likely an EZ out will actually be able to back out the broken piece. (Without serious heat the likelihood of EZ-out success on rust seized fasteners is near zero, since the full sized bolt/stud couldn;t generate enuff torque, thus the tiny EZ0out=, even though made of fancy steel, is a lightweight battling a cruiser weight).

I believe the intense heat of welding is 90% of the reason welded on nuts etc succeed at removing busted studs.

[R1 3137]

I saw a similar thing made up somewhere else so came up with this.


Its the top of a bit driver tacked onto a broken air chisel with a small handle added for turning. One similar could be made to accept sockets I would think (if the nut is accessible). I used it to remove clutch head screws on a pu bed and it worked great. I used Kroil to compare to the PB Blaster I've used for several years now and now choose Kroil as #1.

I think I've tossed all my easyFU's/out's out, as the one's I need to use are already broken in some other attempt that ended in swearing profusely. Now if it won't come loose with the air chisel bumping and the handle turning and the Kroil seeping... I get the mig out.

[RadioRoy]

If you take off the manifold assembly, then you will know if there is a broken stud. You have to take it off anyway to replace the gasket. Spend some time soaking and soaking the nuts - then soak them some more. There are six of them holding the manifold to the block, and two holding the manifold to the exhaust pipe. If you count them, you will know immediately if one is missing.

You need good quality SIX point sockets to remove them. Some folks swear by air tools because they say the vibration and quickness of the power makes the nuts come off better. Some folks cringe at the thought of using air because they say that snapping a stud is more likely, but what they prefer is the slow pull of a human hand on a wrench handle. Some folks like to heat them and some folks like to freeze them. My experience is that they come off fairly easily if you attempt it properly the first time. But that could also be helped by the climate here and the fact that I did mine 20 years ago, when the car was naturally 20 years newer.

Everyone agrees on soaking, soaking, and soaking the nuts.

But definitely leave the head on!

If the manifold is leaking to the block, sometimes/often/usually the exhaust passages are not on the same plane with the intake passages. A machine shop can mill the manifold and make it flat, making all the ports on the same plane. That and a new manifold gasket, and care in cleaning the block and not getting crud into the engine ports, and care in assembly will fix the leaks and probably get the engine running smoothly again. Use new nuts (American ones if you can find them, especially NOS, as the quality of the metallurgy is better. I reuse the old ones if they are still perfect.) on reassembly and use some good anti-seize compound.

Nuts made of bronze used to be available, and there are also ones made of Stainless steel. I have no experience with these.


You definitely do not want to take the head off, unless you you have to, and also are ready to do a lot of work to prep it and put it back on again.


But wait! We still have not determined if there is, indeed a broken stud at all. SOUTHBEND's second post said "I assumed a bolt was broken off since the exhaust leak is at that spot on the block where that front hole in the manifold is."

We have all been extremely helpful and thorough in explaining solutions to what we THINK is the problem based on the original post.

But now, in the light of what we know about the number of Commander six manifold bolts, and what we may think we know about the mechanic's familiarity with Stude's, and SOUTHBEND'S own quote, I submit that the next order of business is for SOUTHBEND to go back and look at it again, in person, and determine if there is a broken or missing stud or not.

I think we will get a pleasant surprise when the bolts get counted.

Maybe we will eventually get better at coaching OP's to give more complete and historical information in the first few posts, too. Too often a newbie makes a diagnosis and we try to help him fix that. But I bet there are LOTS of times when if we knew more about the real problem we would head off in a completely different and hopefully accurate, direction.

Too risk-adverse on my part? Naah!.

[RadioRoy]

I think I've tossed all my easyFU's/out's out, [/QUOTE]

I've never heard them called this before, but I know what you mean, and I laughed my A-- off when I read it!

[R1 3137]

I just call em as I see em...
And just to be clear about that little air tool... I was using it in the CHISEL not a ratchet . That's what the 'handle bar' is for. The strike force is in line with the stud and gentle turning of the nut can be applied removing the fear of any undesired striptease.


edit: P.S. I was just noticing the other day on a friends $50 came complete loaded on his trailere ready to go just needs a battery and gas chebby 235, the two end holes of the mani on it are vacant as well.

[southbend]

Went to the mechanic's yesterday. He's out for few days after injuring himself (minor, I was told). His assistant and I examined the manifold. Indeed, no stud at the rear either. Thanks for the education. Feel kind of silly, now. Assistant seemed to think the other studs wouldn't be much of problem. However, he did point out to me the seepage on the carburetor. So I have a question about rebuild kits but am posting my question on a new thread. Again, thanks to all for the help

[RadioRoy]

Thanks for getting back to us on this one.

[RadioRoy]

So... did you get the manifold gasket replaced< the manifold milled, and now you are happily motoring about town with the engine running smoothly?