Engine: V8 - cork or composite gaskets better for timing cover and oil pan?

[M-Webb]

I need to redo those gaskets on my 289 R2 motor. Anyone have opinions on that? Cork I assume is period/factory correct and maybe still good if done properly. Or are composite ones better?

Obviously how well it is done is a large part of how good either would be of course. That is the problem, the last shop who was helping me with this motor did a terrible job with some cork gaskets that I now need to redo. So before I buy new ones, thought I'd ask.

Looks like cork is most available, but I seem to recall seeing composite ones somewhere but not really seeing them at the moment. Maybe there is a reason for that.

Just trying to do this to minimize future oil leaks of course the best possible way now while the motor is out, is not an easy job once the motor goes back in.

[oilnsteel]

I'd use the modern Fel-pro gaskets. JT

[JoeHall]

I agree with JT, and prefer the particle / composite style. This has been kicked around here a few times, IMHO the particle ones, being thinner, are easier to install. I also believe, the timing cover gasket is only available in particle. FWIW, while at it, I would buy Phil Harris's front crank seal kit and install it. Its modern neoprene seal is much better than the OEM, coiled rope seal. The price is reasonable, and you'll not regret it.
Also, there are lotsa ways to install those gaskets, in and out of the car, oil pan only, or oil pan, filler block and timing cover at same time, or timing cover only, etc.. Don't try to be a neat freak with the sealant, and insure it gets everywhere it needs to, but trim off any excess, that you can reach.

[M-Webb]

Thanks. The last shop that was helping me used cork seals (or maybe is the cork composite style?) for both the timing cover and the oil pan, which I am sure is fine if done properly. Problem is they didn't. They didn't use any sealant on them, either side, and over torqued them, squished it out the sides quite a bit. Even though they swore to me they used some minimal amount of sealant. I said, well I can't see any at all along the edges anywhere except at the filler block joints. They said that is because they are very careful, not just slopping it all over the place. Then told me to take it off and check it then if I didn't believe them and wanted. So I did, no trace at all of any sealant. Guess they thought I wouldn't do it.

They also soaked the oil pan rear filler block seal in motor oil and it was "soaking wet" and dripping. I asked them about that. At first they denied it, then "remembered" that yes, they did soak it in oil because it was "old, dry and brittle". I said to them that doesn't seem like a great idea, why didn't they just get a new fresh seal instead of doing that. Didn't have an answer. So basically the rear pan seal was leaking from day one before the motor ever even had oil in it.

They also stripped out 3 of the bolt holes in the front filler block, then poorly helicoiled them, didn't even set them all the way in flushed. And 1 of the timing cover bolts was not even torqued down, was loose.

Also, it does not appear that the face of the front filler block is aligned with the seal face on the block. It is set back a little slightly. The face on the cover is all one surface. So that can't be good. Did they somehow put that filler block in wrong, is there adjustment for that to get aligned? Guess I'll find out when I flip the motor and take the pan off to redo that.

Joe, yes, the front crank seal is the modern seal retrofit, not the OEM felt seal. Now whether they did it properly or not is debatable. I told them to just follow what others have done and gave them links to the info to follow. But they didn't like the thin metal strips spacer bit. Said it was sketchy and wanted to argue about it, thought they could do better. So found some other seal that fit "better", maybe. Whatever it is seems in there OK and seems like the right ID at least. And the balancer hub does have the speedi-sleeve on it as needed. They also kept trying to measure and find their own sleeve for whatever reason, failed a couple times. I told them to just do what others have done like I said at the beginning and in less than a minute I googled the info and got the correct part # for them, solved the problem.

This is why you just have to do stuff yourself more and more these days. I do appreciate all the great help here though as there is no way I could figure it all out without it. Going through a fast, steep learning curve here on rebuilding a Studebaker V8 motor. But at least I'm learning something. I may or may not ever rebuild another one after all this. Guess it depends how it actually turns out, lol.

[oilnsteel]

Why did they put the drain holes on the top of the seal retainer? They don't believe in gravity? JT

[M-Webb]

Good eye. I hadn't even noticed that yet. But the short answer is because they didn't know much of anything about Studebakers, or some obvious common sense things like that apparently to be honest. Long story is that seal is the modern neoprene seal conversion, not the felt seal, and it is probably fully glued in with sealant, oil isn't going to leak through the holes anyway, or hopefully not. Given their level of work though, it probably would be best for me to pull that seal and redo it at this point, make 100% sure it is done right. Did you notice their excellent helicoil work on the 2 filler block bolt holes?

[M-Webb]

Confirmed the offset on the front filler block, they didn't appear to know that wasn't right either.

[Big Dan]

Be creative! Cut a LEATHER gasket to use like the British do. That way when it stops leaking, you'll know it's time to add oil!

I'm kidding of course.

When I went through my initial Navy Pilot Training at NAS Whiting Field and was flying T-28s with an R-1820 Wright Radial Engine, one of the senior rebuild mechanics told me if I ever walked out to my airplane and there WASN'T a puddle of oil under it, to not fly it - it was empty! Absolutely true story!

[oilnsteel]

If you can still jump over the puddle, its not leaking. JT

[M-Webb]

While I do tend to like to be creative, and leather probably would work better than the job the shop did, I just decided to order a set of fresh gaskets from Stephen Allen's and go with that. This will be the 2nd set for the oil pan from them since the shop ruined the 1st set.

[oilnsteel]

Forgive me for mentioning this, but if that shop screwed up the front of your engine that much, how can you trust what they did inside? JT

[M-Webb]

Very legitimate question. Or the 1st 2 shops that also worked on this motor, really if we want to go all the way back on this project. Once I get the pan off, I'll check some of that too.

But to the most recent issues with this shop, that was suppose to have checked all of the work the was done before, they started out good and had some knowledgeable people working on it. But after months just couldn't seem to get it done. At the end, they just really needed to finish up bolting stuff on basically. So after pressing them when it would be done, the owner got a bit huffy with me and we mutually decided to part ways. Shortly after I got the motor back and looking at it closely trying to finish it myself, is when I realized these seals were not done well and I was going to have to redo them. In asking them about it, I came to realize that they really just had a very young fresh out of high school kid doing the last bits of work. Not the older experienced guys for some reason.

So the short answer is I hope the inexperienced work is mostly just the seals, not anything more critical inside the motor. That is my hope anyway.

I've already had a 2nd local shop check and redo work from the 1st shop. The 2nd shop also could not get it done after a year. So this 3rd shop was a repeat of that effort to check the entire motor yet again and just make sure it was together properly and get it done. After 6 mos and strings of continued delays and excuses, they also failed to get it done and I had enough. So now it is on me to just try to fix what I can figure out as best I can and just hope I can learn enough in the process to do it. Short of breaking this whole motor all the way done to zero again and starting from scratch and learning every single thing to do it. Which yes, is what I really probably should do. But after 10 years and 3 shops, I'm not sure I have the mental energy for it at this point. Still trying to remain optimistic that the core short block part of the motor was done right, at least the last time it was done by the 2nd shop, and supposedly rechecked by these guys who said it was good, checking clearances, torque on bolts and all that.....supposedly.

I met the young kid they had working on it when I went to pick up the motor. I didn't realize he was the one working on it at that point. He seemed like a nice kid and it was nice someone his age was into working at a shop like that. So I don't want to discredit him himself, don't blame him. But he never should have been working on that motor, especially given that the older guys themselves didn't exactly know what they were doing with it and it was way late and I had repeatedly stressed to them to make sure it was sealed up as best as possible to minimize any oil leaks. So the shop owner putting a high school kid on it with very limited experience at all to get it done to me is a bit inexcusable, and honestly infuriating. His work, while I am sure was a well intentioned and honest effort, was clearly was not checked and mentored very well. To top it off, I got charged full hourly CA level shop rates, and they even charged me an extra hour for them to help me load the pile of parts into my truck when I went to pick it up. Nice touch on that.

If/when I do manage to get it all together and in the truck and running, if I'm lucky enough finally and it runs well, I'll be happy. If not, guess I'll have to figure out plan B. Maybe just re-seal the old 259 that came out of the truck and give up on this motor and scrap it or whatever. But I'm still trying to remain somewhat optimistic at least the core work is good. But yeah, who knows.

7-8 years waiting on the original build (not local) - not good.
1 year on the 2nd shop (local) to check and redo it - failed.
6+ mos on the 3rd shop (local), same thing - failed.
now up to me to just try to get it done as best I can somehow

[M-Webb]

New gaskets ordered and on the way. Think is the Fel-Pro for the oil pan and Best for the timing cover, as seems to be what is commonly available currently.

2nd question. I normally would put a thin bead of sealant on both surfaces of the gaskets to stock them in place and provide a little extra measure of seal. Others agree with that technique or advise against for some reason? If good with that, what are the preferred gasket sealants people like to use, black would be preferred color as far as that goes since the motor is the factory black with yellow rocker covers? Seems like there are a lot of different options, even among all the Permatex products, a lot of what seems like overlapping applications, various different stuff intended for the same thing.

[enjenjo]

My go to is Permatex Ultra black silicone. https://a.co/d/9IN0QbB I have never had a leaky engine using it. I have assembled hundreds of engines. Just not Studebaker engines. I hear good things about The Right Stuff but I have not used it yet. I hesitate to try it on the the first Studebaker V8 I am building.

[oilnsteel]

Pity you don't live closer. I could have rebuilt it for you in less than 8 years. JT

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Who is making new gaskets for Studebaker V8s? I know that Best Gasket Co. does, but are there any others these days?
--Dwight

[StudeRich]

In my opinion, the "Best" is Not "Best" Brand.

I use only the OEM original FelPro Brand that Studebaker used when they switched from the old mostly Cork Victor Brand to improve sealing in '61 and later.

[M-Webb]

From what I can see searching, it looks like the Fel-Pro ones are easy to get for the oil pan. But Fel-Pro is "out of stock" on their timing cover gaskets, and I wasn't able to find one on ebay or whatever doing a quick look. So maybe they are NLA, at least at the moment, short of finding the odd left over one here or there from somewhere. To be honest, not sure what SA carries for either, but we'll see soon.

[StudeRich]

/Cut/ what are the preferred gasket sealants people like to use, black would be preferred color as far as that goes since the motor is the factory black with yellow rocker covers? /Cut/

You will find that everyone has their "Fav" Brand and type of sealant, but the truth is, they all work much better than none if properly applied.

This 82180 Ultra Black RTV Silicone is what most use nowadays, and it works as good as any as long as you do Not apply it too thick, and then snug up the fasteners, cure overnight, then lightly torque them evenly.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/oil--chemicals---fluids/adhesives---sealants/gasket-makers---sealers/166cc2694828?q=gasket+makers+%26+sealers

Just remember that, No Silicone product is recommended for use where Fuel could come in contact, such as a Gas Tank sending unit, or an intake Manifold Gasket, that does not require sealant anyway.

[JoeHall]

You will find that everyone has their "Fav" Brand and type of sealant, but the truth is, they all work much better than none if properly applied.

This 82180 Ultra Black RTV Silicone is what most use nowadays, and it works as good as any as long as you do Not apply it too thick, and then snug up the fasteners, cure overnight, then lightly torque them evenly.

https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/o...rs+%26+sealers

I like Permatex, but NOT their Ultra line. Whatever you use it on, for example, you'll need to chisel it apart next time. I prefer their "Right Stuff" which seals just as well as Ultra, but easy do take back apart in future, if ever needed. Right Stuff is also easier to clean off. Looking at the OP's pics above, I believe I see remnants of Right Stuff, here and there.

[M-Webb]

Thanks, this is helpful. So going dry with no sealant at all seems to NOT be recommended. Glad we can confirm that at least. So, yes, another thing the last shop failed at, despite the owner actually telling me they did use sealant, just did such a clean professional job of it, there was not visible evidence of it once assembled. I knew it was BS when he was telling me that.

edit: to be clear, they did use some sealant at the joints of the filler blocks, but not anywhere along the actual gaskets, including along the filler blocks either. Actually, the shop owner told me they soaked the rear filler block seal in oil to soften it because if was old, dried out and cracking. Which is BS itself because I actually bought a brand new seal from SA and gave it to them. So unless motor oil is now considered a sealant, there is no way they could have put any sealant on the rear seal obviously.