Engine: 1950 Champion major engine problems after 2 rebuilds by same mechanic

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

I have a 1950 Champion, 47000 original miles, had local home mechanic who deals with Stubebakers do a full rebuild last year. It started fine but within 80 miles or so, with stops, lost 2 quarts of oil. The underframe was soaked in oil.

Had oilpan checked for tightness as sources of leak unclear and there was no smoke. One Mechanic did find that a rear bolt on crankcase was very loose, he tightened it. Engine made much more noise than before full rebuild. Another mechanic suspected that rings were not seated correctly, resulting in extreme compression and oil blowout

Oil pressure was normal when first starting at 35 but gradually declined.

Oil was dirty even though rebuild mechanic said he had broken engine in, though I do not see how, since it was not registered for use and odometer did not indicate significant driving. Had oil changed again with Mobil 1, sporadically drove it for 3 weeks.

Drove it back to original mechanic 80 miles away, and the car began to smoke and hesitate after 50 of those miles. Oil pressure began to drop sharply. Stopped and refilled oil w 20/50 to reach destination. During final 30 miles clanking noise periodically came from engine.

I then found among receipts he gave me one for a cheap set of SER Cylinder hone stones. (All pistons, rings, and camshaft were replaced w new ones, crankshaft re-ground w new bearings, everything). I can only assume he never used any automated equipment to bore the cylinders and tried to do it by hand. If so, mechanics told me this would create grave problems.

Any advice greatly appreciated! There are many other problems he seems to have created which I will detail later.

Best,
Lawrence

[yeroldad]

If you brought your car to me with these problems, I would tell you this: I will pull the motor out, and tear it down and start over rebuilding it, same as any good shop/mechanic would. Many shops would not touch it after someone else screwed it up. One of the first engines I rebuilt was a '51 Champion. I was ~17. It was very simple and easy to rebuild. Sorry for your problems. Hard to find a good mechanic anywhere these days, and us old farts are getting too crippled up and worn out. Being in Washington state, I'm way to far from you, or I would offer to help you out.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

Thank you very much yelodad. He will have to re-do it, obviously, but he's messed it up twice, and it goes way further - screwing up the electrics, leaving parts like the vacuum diaphragm disconnected, leaving bumper bolts off, suspension steering mechanism bolt off, exhaust manifold hanging by one bolt, (I ended up replacing the whole system) etc. But you are right, no one in their right mind would touch it after he has screwed it up.

My question was more about his evident decision to use a hand tool to try and basically clean up the cylinders and not a machine. Others have said this will simply not work, especially on such an old engine.

[gordr]

Sounds to me like you need to find another mechanic. If the engine truly had only 47000 miles on it, it should not have needed a rebore. Back in the day, it would have had the cylinders honed, and new rings installed on the original pistons. By 90,000 miles, a rebore would be required. Now maybe your car had 147,000 miles on it, in which case, the bores would be pretty bad indeed. Any good mechanic ought to be able to handle an engine that has been bodged. They may complain bitterly, but a job's a job. Note that the Champion engines are wont to develop serious wear in the valve lifter bores, which causes excess oil to be splashed up onto the valve guides, and consumed in the cylinders.

First order of business is to get the engine out, tear it down, and measure cylinders, bearings, and lifter bores to determine how much wear is present.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

Thanks Gord' s Gold. Car was garaged from 1983-1999 in a climate controlled underground garage with a collector and family friend, had 45k on it at the time. Before 1983 had also been garaged for at least 15 years with another collector. Needed a new fuel tank and some brake work but otherwise in too pristine condition to have been 147,000. Has and had original manual, even penciled notes when oil changes were made. I bought it in 1999 but rarely drove it, I am abroad much of the time. It did burn some oil. First partial rebuild was in 2011, and only a few hundred miles have been put on it since then between storage periods. But in 2023 the engine quit after a 75 mile drive. Had it towed back to same mechanic where I was driving it from - it had been in storage and recently re-licensed under original 1950 plate (this is possible in Michigan).This time he replaced everything except the block, and I have the receipts. He also had starter rebuilt which actually had never been a problem. The crank and starter was re-done by Studebaker Parts.com in Gilbert, AZ, and all the other parts were purchased from them from sending units to oil pump kit to clutch disc. He claims the valves were clean and well seated.

Ironically the "rebuilt" starter seemed to have a tougher time turning over the engine which is why other mechanics suggested mis-seated rings and thus crankcase pressure. Then after the first 80 miles, it quit after getting it home again, the bendix just spun. This problem mysteriously rectified itself after 3 days and it ran OK for 2-3 weeks, the quit again. At the same time it was blasting oil out of the loose crankcase fitting, evidently due to pressure, and used five quarts of oil on way back to him (80 miles again) in October 2024. The firewall and underside of engine were soaked in oil.

To add injury to insult, the gas gauge and turn signals, as well as several dash lights, were malfunctioning when he gave it back to me. I opened the in-line fuse and saw the fuse was burned out but that he had put a piece of aluminum foil in its place which could have fried some of the electrical stuff. Changed cylinder signal myself, that didn't help, then found a receipt in his name for same part purchased 4 months prior (he denies touching turn signals). Much of the wiring under the hood was also bare wire (rodents in storage), and his answer was to partially fix that with elec tape - it probably needs a new harness altogether.

Another strange element - he said do not drive it over 55 mph as it has a normal 3-seed but an OD transmission. I wondered why he never mentioned this before as he has worked on it since 2008. But indeed, the gear ratios seem higher than before. Perhaps he damaged the old trans and replaced it with a used OD version, as he has a buddy with a barnful of old studebaker parts.

Cheers

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

Thanks Gord' s Gold. Car was garaged from 1983-1999 in a climate controlled underground garage with a collector and family friend, had 45k on it at the time. Before 1983 had also been garaged for at least 15 years with another collector. Needed a new fuel tank and some brake work but otherwise in too pristine condition to have been 147,000. Has and had original manual, even penciled notes when oil changes were made. I bought it in 1999 but rarely drove it, I am abroad much of the time. It did burn some oil. First partial rebuild was in 2011, and only a few hundred miles have been put on it since then between storage periods. But in 2023 the engine quit after a 75 mile drive. Had it towed back to same mechanic where I was driving it from - it had been in storage and recently re-licensed under original 1950 plate (this is possible in Michigan).This time he replaced everything except the block, and I have the receipts. He also had starter rebuilt which actually had never been a problem. The crank and starter was re-done by Studebaker Parts.com in Gilbert, AZ, and all the other parts were purchased from them from sending units to oil pump kit to clutch disc. He claims the valves were clean and well seated.

Ironically the "rebuilt" starter seemed to have a tougher time turning over the engine which is why other mechanics suggested mis-seated rings and thus crankcase pressure. Then after the first 80 miles, it quit after getting it home again, the bendix just spun. This problem mysteriously rectified itself after 3 days and it ran OK for 2-3 weeks, the quit again. At the same time it was blasting oil out of the loose crankcase fitting, evidently due to pressure, and used five quarts of oil on way back to him (80 miles again) in October 2024. The firewall and underside of engine were soaked in oil.

To add injury to insult, the gas gauge and turn signals, as well as several dash lights, were malfunctioning when he gave it back to me. I opened the in-line fuse and saw the fuse was burned out but that he had put a piece of aluminum foil in its place which could have fried some of the electrical stuff. Changed cylinder signal myself, that didn't help, then found a receipt in his name for same part purchased 4 months prior (he denies touching turn signals). Much of the wiring under the hood was also bare wire (rodents in storage), and his answer was to partially fix that with elec tape - it probably needs a new harness altogether.

Another strange element - he said do not drive it over 55 mph as (he said) it has a normal 3-speed but an OD transmission. I wondered why he never mentioned this before as he has worked on it since 2008. But indeed, the gear ratios seem higher than before. Perhaps he damaged the old trans and replaced it with a used OD version, as he has a buddy with a barnful of old studebaker parts.

Cheers

[StudeRich]

This seems all Backwards, if he said it has Overdrive, so so you can't drive it as fast, that is NOT true, just the opposite, IF it works !

[StudeRich]

FIRST Order of business is to find a REAL Mechanic !
He should be able to find enough screw ups to document for a Lawsuit against the idiot that screwed it up.

Then Gord's suggestions are perfect.

[enjenjo]

If it used 5 quarts of oil in 70 miles it needs another rebuild. Out of the over 400 engines I have rebuilt I had one that failed after 650 miles because the owner lost the drain plug gasket when doing the 500 mile oil change and ran it out of oil. It had to be rebuilt again on his dime.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

Definitely not the drain plug gasket. It lost 2 quarts in 80 miles from mechanic's place to my house after rebuild,and was much noisier than before rebuild. The rear crankcase plug was found to be loose, and another mechanic said there was obvious excess pressure causing it due to evident rings being improperly seated, valve issues, other factors. It didn't run out of oil, but pressure dropped abruptly and firewall soaked in oil. Had to add oil along the way to get it to his place on way back.

[DieselJim]

Pull the engine and bring it in South Bend. Been building Studebaker engines over 65 years. Jim.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

HI Jim. Send me your number over email at lsheets@fastmail.fm

[DieselJim]

Message sent.

[yeroldad]

No matter how you diasect the problems, you are still going to have to deal with it, or walk away from the project. Take that not a mechanic to court and have the good mechanic that you take the motor to write up what the problems are, take that, and the good mechnic (if he will go) to testify in court and show the judge. Yeah, it's a PITA, but these mechanics that do bad work need to be exposed, and be held responsible. And, you just might get your money back. I have been in court several times testifying on behalf of people like you, with good results. Les Schwab in Pullman, Washington as an example. Maybe I shouldn't name them, might get spanked by SDC forum, but the truth is the truth. I have helped get the customers money back more often than not.

[Jeffry Cassel]

Too bad. Hard to believe an over haul can be that terrible. Talk to some of "Diesel Jim's" customers. Sounds like dragging it down to him would be a sound decision. Once again let us know what he finds!

[skyway]

I’d be wanting to determine exactly where all the oil on the under frame & firewall is coming from?
For example, is it blowing out thru the oil filler cap or the road draft tube, or is it leaking from the tappet covers, the timing cover, the oil pan and/or the rear main seal? For that matter, is it simply leaking from a failing, broken, or even missing, flexible hose to the oil pressure gauge? This hose is bolted to the right rear corner of the head, and is known to fail, resulting in “oil everywhere”.
I’m not saying that all is well inside your engine, just that the root cause of any damage could be a bad oil leak resulting in severe oil loss.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

Yes, there was some oil from the filler cap coming out and running down the filler tube. It was the original, so I replaced it. Still seemed to leak some as it is a breather cap and thus permeable. In addition we found that the tube itself was not fully tight and could be moved (not fully tight at base.

Thirdly, the dipstick would not stay fully in and would push out when the engine was operating, despite rubber seal. tried securing it temporarily with industrial grade tape to see what would happen and it pushed it right out. Compression issue it seems. On idle or observation by several of us with increasing RPMs not immediately visible from where, probably some from a variety of places if over compression an issue.

Oil guage worked fine, just it would greadually drop from about 40 at startup to 30-35 at 50 mph then lower the longer one drove it, indicating oil loss perhaps.

Thanks to you and all on this forum.

Best
LSS

[jackb]

This is a story that might get you money submitting to an old car journal..... You've listed many things already that convince many here that the mechanic in question is exactly that - a mechanic in question. Besides loose bolts, aluminum foil etc...I doubt he has any resources to attain legally. Follow advise above for a new mechanic and move on.

[Lawrence Scott Sheets]

great idea, but yes it's been comic opera, good feature story stuff. he has resources and outsources some of his work but I now understand he takes shortcuts or flat out lies.

[DieselJim]

Picked up the car. The engine was apart. It has new standard pistons. Removed a ring and put in the cylinder. Ring gap was .040 Speck is .007. Slid a .014 feeler gage between the piston and wall. Speck is .002. Took a new .020 piston and put in the cylinder ring land first. It went almost to rist pin. Now we know the compression was going past the pistons and build pressure in crankcase blowing out any place it could. Main journal worn with deep grooves. A 1/4 shim in the oil pressure relief valve spring trying to raise oil pressure. New cam. old lifters and gear.

[tsenecal]

I'm kinda surprised it ran at all! Hopefully you can save what's left of it.