Clutch / Torque Converter: Clutch Chatter- '63 R2 GT Hawk w/ T10 4 Speed

[radioadman1]

I've replaced the clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing, etc. on my '63 R2 with the T10 4 speed twice and it still chatters when the clutch is engaged. For context, all parts were ordered from Studebaker International- not that this would have a bearing on their quality. Rather, these were Studebaker-specific clutch parts. I was also told by the two different mechanics that did both replacements that the flywheel was fine and did not need resurfacing.

Things of note: When the car is cold, there is no chatter; however, when it is been warmed up with use, it's significant from a dead stop, especially after a drive of over 20 minutes. I've learned to somewhat live with it, and have modified how I release the clutch to minimize it, but I doubt it was designed to behave this way- and it's irritating.

A couple of questions here:
1) Was clutch chatter a characteristic of the '63 GT Hawk with the T10 4 speed?
2) What is the fix? Is there a "shortcut" to a fix?

[r1lark]

I was also told by the two different mechanics that did both replacements that the flywheel was fine and did not need resurfacing.

I would be very suspicious about the flywheel. I don't replace a disc/pressure plate without resurfacing the flywheel.

Are your motor mount and trans mount insulators in good condition? Maybe if those are not in good condition, the engine/trans could be shifting around when you let out the clutch, mimicking a clutch chatter?

Have you inspected your clutch linkage (clutch operating shaft, the operating shaft sleeve, sleeve pins, etc) for excessive wear?

[StudeRich]

One of the most common causes for clutch chatter, is the 3 Pressure Plate release levers are not all equally Level for a smooth, even release.

If the replacement was a rebuild, that would be more likely than the other possibility; a poor quality, imported New one.

I suppose it is possible that the Throwout Bearing is not sitting evenly on the release Levers on the cross shaft, due to improper installation of the T/Brg. locating spring.

[E. Davis]

Join the club. I have a 61 with the T-10 and the clutch chatter. It is annoying as you describe and you have to learn to limit your acceleration on take off to remedy it. Some have told me it is a bell housing dial in problem, some mention the engine mounts and some say it has to do with the mounting without a tail piece mount on the T-10. I think (and so does Joe Hall)that it has to do with the 3:07 ratio rear end not being compatible with the T-10 gearing and you just learn to live with it. Your car probably does not have the higher geared rear end unless someone replaced the original as they did mine. It is great on the highway but a pain in start and go traffic. The afore mentioned Joe Hall, a renowned Studebaker mechanic and frequent contributor on this page has opined that the T-10 tranny itself sometimes contributes to this problem so go figure. Hope you find out the problem and if you do please enlighten the rest of us.

[t walgamuth]

I had a similar problem on m 83 Mercedes diesel. I decided to take off more aggressively and wear through the problem area on the disk. It worked and after a few months it never chattered again.

[JoeHall]

Clutch chatter is a PITA and, IMHO, can have more than one contributor: high mileage on the drivetrain (engine, transmission, clutch, u'joints, rear end); excess transmission input shaft end play, and engine vibration damper failure. When I installed an NOS T89 in a 56J in the mid 1980s, the motor was also fairly fresh, and there was no noticeable clutch chatter. But as years and miles went by, clutch chatter became increasingly noticeable (only in 1st and reverse, never in other gears). I once reduced it considerably by replacing a worn out harmonic balancer on the 352 motor. Another time, I reduced it when I rebuilt the 352 and included all new clutch components. Most recently, I rebuilt that T89, at about 170,000 miles in service. In inspection prior to teardown, I noticed input shaft end play was way excessive, so paid particular attention to putting it within spec upon reassembly. Now, clutch chatter is back to nil. So, with the OP's chatter, I'd start with the T10's input shaft end play; it's easy to adjust via shaft flange, bearing snap ring, and/or flange gasket thickness. (The T10, T85 and T89 have much in common, rebuild procedures similar, and several internals are interchangeable.)

[radioadman1]

Thank you Joe, appreciated greatly!

[PackardV8]

We need to know your rear gear ratio and tire size; these have a lot to do with how the car behaves off the line.

Never, ever replace the clutch and pressure plate without resurfacing the flywheel.

Check the motor mounts. They usually need to be replaced after sixty years or so.

Yes, if the bellhousing is not original to the engine, it must be dial indicated.

No, the '61-'62 2.20 first gear T10 was not a good fit for a heavy car such as the Hawk. If your '63 has the later 2.54 first gear; it's better off the line. The ratio spacing after that was crap, but it was what we had in those days.

BTW - the T89 overdrive Studebaker truck transmission Joe Hall modified to fit his '56J has excellent ratio spacing for road use; noisy in first gear, but that's the tradeoff.

jack vines

[fh4ever]

I agree with all that was said. For me, it was the 3 arms not at the same height (as StudeRich said), plus the pilot bushing had too much wear. I replaced the pressure plate twice (both rebuilt units) before I found the arms were not level. A quick re-shimming of the arm pivot mounts did the trick along with replacing the bronze pilot bushing with a ball bearing.
When flywheels are being re-surfaced, the technician really should be going off of the crankshaft mating surface to mimick it being in the car . Some 35 years ago, a shop ran my flywheel several passes across a surface grinder table until it cleaned up (flat table with flush grinding wheel). I did not know any better and installed it. Chattered like crazy! Point is, some shops don't know what they are doing....including the pressure plate rebuilder...who never checked the finger height! Check their work!

[PackardV8]

There's a reason flywheel grinding machines exist; because they're necessary. Surface grinders, lathes, any other machine, just won't make it right.

jack vines

[Topper2011]

A lot of times, clutch chatter is from contaminated surfaces. Greasy hand prints on the parts during assembly would do it.

[Harold Hadley]

Check out my recent post regarding clutch chatter. I purchased and installed three different full clutch assemblies from three different reputable Studebaker parts dealers and, even though I replaced throwout and pilot bearings, trans and motor mounts, and more, all resulted in severe and unacceptable clutch chatter. Then, acting on the suggestion of a Studie guy who responded to my text, I tried out a Chevrolet 409 clutch assembly and OH MY GOD! What a difference. Soo smooth, far superior to the Studie clutch, no fingers, a diaphragm instead. Much superior technology. I hope other chatterer suffers see these texts. Good luck

[Topper2011]

Not to mention how it makes the clutch pedal lighter. I had a diaphragm pressure plate in my Willys pickup and it was nice and light, no chatter, but did have to get the correct height throw out bearing with the curved surface.

[wminter]

Did you replace the 10” Hawk clutch with the 10.5” chevy clutch. Did the stock Studebaker release bearing work with the diaphragm type clutch? I have a terrible chatter problem.

[JoeHall]

I installed a GM diaphragm PP in my 62GT the last time I rebuilt the 289, about 60,000 miles ago. I like the way the felt pedal pressure gets lighter the last inch or so, when pressed to the floor. It required extensive grinding on the insides of the bell housing though, and I am not sure the juice was worth the squeeze. If doing another car, I'd probably just go with an original B&B type pressure plate. That car has had several OD transmissions in the 300,000+ miles I've had it: an NOS T85 for 1958 Golden Hawk the first 100,000; a T86 the next 40,000 (the third time I had to repair it, I tossed it), and the T89 that replaced the wimpy T86. But that car has never had clutch chatter, and has always had a 10.5" disc and PP.

[jackb]

I got lucky that one of our vendors had NOS clutch parts to install. Always check them.

[Bud]

I have a 62 GT with a T10 and have not had problems with a chattering clutch though I still have an old style clutch disc which I believe to be asbestos. I had trouble with clutch chatter years ago when the rebuilt pressure plate I used was not adjusted correctly from the rebuilder. I also think that part of the problem with chattering clutches is the use of non asbestos material on the clutch disc. I owned a 1955 Ford with overdrive that after I replaced the clutch with the new style clutch lining, the clutch was kind of grabby and not as smooth as the old one and that is using new pressure plate, resurfacing the fly wheel and replacing both the pilot and throw out bearings. Bud

[wcarroll@outrageous.net]

I can’t remember, does the T10 bell housing setup use a cross shaft or lever to engage the throw out?