Engine: Spark Plug Reading Expert needed

[63larkcustom]

I'm starting a new thread since the electrical issue with the fuel pump is resolved, and the thread is going into this direction. I cleaned the points and replaced the distributor cap, rotor, spark plugs, and spark plug wires (I got them all from Russ at studebakerparts.com) about 200 miles ago. In the last few weeks, I've noticed a lot of carbon/wet black moisture coming out of the tailpipe when I start the car in the morning. I pulled the plugs to take a look this morning and am attaching pictures.

None of them looked good; the first four look like the spark plug pictured in the cylinder 3 thumbnail. Numbers 5 and 6 look like the second picture. I think it may have a ring problem, but am not sure. I used a long rod to act like a stethoscope the other day when I heard a slight knocking noise at low RPM and traced the noise down to the 5/6 cylinder area in the lower block. When I first start it, there are some pretty good puffs of black/blue smoke and oily soot out of the tailpipe onto the driveway (pictures attached).

The engine is the infamous overhead 6. When I bought the car, the previous owner told me the engine had been rebuilt in 2015 after overheating and cracking the head going to a meet in Missouri. The car was used very sparingly since then and sat for long periods of time, so they may not have been aware of the issue. I have not run a compression test to determine if it's good, but the car pulls strongly when I drive it.

Known issues on the drivetrain at this point are; bad radiator (leaking from the lower tank), needs complete exhaust system replacement due to holes in muffler/rust, leaking front and rear seals (makes a foot-in-diameter puddle from rear seal) each time I use it. The rear channel on the front cross member catches oil from the front seal and, about once a month, fills it up to where it starts dripping. I think it may be time for an engine/transmission swap unless it just needs minor fixes.

The car needs to be reliable as it's our 2nd car and for the last year it's been down 90% of the time as each time I fix something, something else breaks. I've replaced too many parts on it to even think about replacing the car now. The front and rear suspension have been completely replaced. The brake system is all new with dual m/c and disc brakes up front. The rear axle was just rebuilt. The body and interior are just about flawless.

I'm beginning to think of a drivetrain swap at this point. The goal is decent reliability. It may be cheaper in the long run. I'm not a mechanic but I have learned a lot from the forum members and received a lot of sound advice. I'd like it to remain a full Stude, but I'm finding parts are getting to be a problem for normal maintenance items like fuel pumps, brake drums etc. I know I'm going to get screamed at for contemplating the McKinnon route, but it seems like if I want to use the car for what it was intended to be, I may need to go there.

[Topper2011]

That's a lot of carbon. Running rich by the looks of it. Is this after a run on the freeway?

[63larkcustom]

No, its 150 miles of 5-10 mile trips going 45-50 mph. It's not been reliable enough to go on the freeway

[Topper2011]

You need to give it a good run to get a proper plug reading.

[63larkcustom]

I'd love to but it's been shutting down/vapor locking when I go much further than what I have.

[Studebakercenteroforegon]

Your choke may not be fully opening up The tube that is pressed in to the exhaust manifold to supply heated air to the choke housing has been known to burn through and thus pass corrosive exhaust gases to the choke instead of clean heated air. This will corrode the choke housing and keep it from operating correctly. The tube pressed in the manifold is replaceable without removing the manifold.

[StudeRich]

That engine and complete Exhaust System is probably completely covered in Carbon, due too running Rich and too much low speed operation.

I have seen cars treated that way, actually blow CHUNKS of carbon out of the Pipes, Muffler, Manifold and Combustion Chamber.

[Hallabutt]

Fix the heat riser, install a reliable fuel pump and do what has already been advised-take it on a hot run, on the freeway.

[Bud]

I'm seeing one plug that is carbon fouled from either a rich mixture or weak spark. The other plug appears to be running in a cylinder that is running way too lean, maybe from a leak in the induction system like a bad intake manifold gasket. I would not recommend driving the car until you get its problems sorted out especially since you have at least one cylinder running way too lean or hot due to lack of cooling around the offending cylinder which can cause serious damage in short order. Bud

[6hk71400]

Bob,

What I am going to tell you (my opinion) is it may be time to investigate an engine transplant if you truly want to put the Daytona to use as a daily driver. I know what I am going to say goes against my grain and may sound sacrilege but the parts problem and working on the car is not going to get better with age.

For years, I drove a 62 Lark regal 2 door hardtop with a 6/od as a daily driver/drivers ed car when my daughter was 16(42 now). I regret selling it but I never has any problems with it, not like you are having. I drove it to the post office and also in low traffic areas so my daughter could learn standard shift.

My opinion(get your rocks ready to throw) is to investigate a 3.8 GM V6 and matching transmission with the needed wiring harness. Another option is the 4.7 V8 like in my daily driver. It hauls around a 2006 Tahoe and I get on I-10 18 mpg. These engines can go 200,000 without major repairs. They also handle A/C very well here in Arizona. You don't have to open your hood when you go to a meet; the cars looks so good you don't need to open the hood. You can always keep the six stuff and put it in later if you wish

Like I said, I am all for keeping Studebaker's as they came out of the factory but at some point in time you may want to throw the white towel to be able to drive the car instead of looking at it in the garage. I was lucky when I had my 62. I was the third owner and the car sold new in Tucson and it has 50k on it. What the new owners did well you don't want to know. As you know when a car has had several hands on it, you run into the problems you have been having.

[63larkcustom]

Thanks for jumping in, Bob. You've seen me drive the car and know I'm not rough on it, but definitely do not baby it. Regarding the freeway driving thing, If one isn't familiar with Green Valley/Sahuarita , AZ (a rural metro area), one would not know that it's pretty wide open for driving and has no stop-and-go 4 stop lights lol. The car, when driven, is driven at sustained 50-60 mph, and with my little six and no o/d, it runs 3000-3500 rpms at those speeds. I've taken it on the freeway for 20 miles running it back and forth between Sahuarita Road/Continental Road on I19 going 63-65mph with the tach showing 4300-4500 RPMs the whole time. The last time I jumped on before the fuel pump shenanigans happened, I gave it a swift kick in the butt running full throttle up the ramp to try and get it to speed to merge into traffic. It fogged the area with blue smoke which went away once I got to steady speed. I agree the choke may be an issue, I'll definitely look at it. I've ordered a new air filter and points, just in case. Once those are on, I'm going to clean the plugs, put another can of seafoam in the tank, and give her "what for." What's the worst that can happen at this point... a tow ride home? lol.

I've been thinking about a 4.3 or 5.7 with a manual floor shift; I didn't even think about a 3.8, as I didn't know they made manifolds that would fit around the steering linkage. I had a couple of cars back in the 90s that had the 3800, and I was really happy with those. Regarding daily driving, I really have no choice but to continue with this car as I've sunk over $16k into it, including the $7,500 I paid for the car. I'll never get that if I were to sell it in its current state and she's a very gorgeous car. Steve goes to Tucson frequently and I don't like not having wheels while he's gone. In all fairness if I drive 4000 miles a year, its a miracle. This one needs to last and be fit for purpose.

[63larkcustom]

I had a Volvo 240 for many years and really enjoyed how bulletproof it was and in many respects it was a similar car to the Daytona. I've thought about going the redblock route as the hp rating/car's weight are similar. The 240s use a Dana 30 rear end, might be able to still use the 27 I just rebuilt. I don't need a race car.

[StudeRich]

Is a "Redblock" a Volvo Engine?

[63larkcustom]

Yes it’s the b series engine

[Lark Hunter]

I really can't tell much from two spark plugs, but if those are both from the same engine, there's something going on. The pile of soot on the floor says it's running pig rich, and I'm wondering if it's even firing on the cylinder with the clean plug.

First thing is a compression test. If you have already completed that, what are the numbers?

Also, what is your fuel pressure? Aftermarket pumps (admittedly, it seems to be more common with mechanical pumps, but can happen with electric too) often put out 6-7-10psi; you need 3-4psi. The liquid coming out of the tailpipe is most likely condensation. Larks with stock exhaust tend to trap water, and it can build up if you're doing a lot of short runs or idling... this is because the tailpipe curves upward before aiming down at the back of the car. I had problems with the power valve in my carburetor sticking open, and I was getting a lot of black smoke and soot staining behind the car. The rancid fuel I mentioned in your other recent thread also started puddling in the intake right below the carburetor, and a couple of intake valves started sticking.

-But yeah. I would step back and see if the engine's mechanically healthy enough before advancing to drivability/reliability things. You can chase your tail endlessly with carburetion/ignition woes while unknowingly fighting an engine that's ready for hospice care.

[Lark Hunter]

Bob,

What I am going to tell you (my opinion) is it may be time to investigate an engine transplant if you truly want to put the Daytona to use as a daily driver. I know what I am going to say goes against my grain and may sound sacrilege but the parts problem and working on the car is not going to get better with age.

For years, I drove a 62 Lark regal 2 door hardtop with a 6/od as a daily driver/drivers ed car when my daughter was 16(42 now). I regret selling it but I never has any problems with it, not like you are having. I drove it to the post office and also in low traffic areas so my daughter could learn standard shift.

My opinion(get your rocks ready to throw) is to investigate a 3.8 GM V6 and matching transmission with the needed wiring harness. Another option is the 4.7 V8 like in my daily driver. It hauls around a 2006 Tahoe and I get on I-10 18 mpg. These engines can go 200,000 without major repairs. They also handle A/C very well here in Arizona. You don't have to open your hood when you go to a meet; the cars looks so good you don't need to open the hood. You can always keep the six stuff and put it in later if you wish

Like I said, I am all for keeping Studebaker's as they came out of the factory but at some point in time you may want to throw the white towel to be able to drive the car instead of looking at it in the garage. I was lucky when I had my 62. I was the third owner and the car sold new in Tucson and it has 50k on it. What the new owners did well you don't want to know. As you know when a car has had several hands on it, you run into the problems you have been having.

I'm not sure I agree. While I'll admit to not having real world experience with an OHV 170, I'd be willing to give one a go. I'm well aware of their potential deficiencies, but have a feeling I could make and keep one healthy enough to depend on it to do daily Larking duties... especially if you do a fair amount of driving in urban areas and on secondary roads. Admittedly, Arizona is more sparse than urban, but I wouldn't be afraid to get on the freeway with overdrive. In fact, I absolutely would not have one without overdrive. As long as you keep the valve lash in check, don't overheat the engine, and aren't continually flogging the snot out of it, it seems like you could have a decent cruiser. Not sure how one would hold up running A/C on the freeway on a 115 degree day, but my sensibilities are still saying that you could make one work without being totally miserable.

If I were going to do an engine swap, it would be a Studebaker V8. They're built like an anvil, and are 100% capable of doing the job. My views may be a bit biased, but getting away from modern EFI'd and electronically managed powertrains are part of the reason for my love of old cars. It's not that I'm confounded by modern technology or don't know how to work on it... it's that I just don't want to.

I didn't know that your Tahoe has a 4.8 (4.7 would be a lousy OHC V8 that Chrysler used in the 2000's). Most of those had the ubiquitous 5.3 liter variant of the LS series engines.

[Lark Hunter]

I must say that your prescription of a GM "LS" or Gen 3 or whatever you may prefer to call it is a very good one, though. Aside from the awful AFM (cylinder deactivation) that started appearing on the 5.3 in the mid 2000s, these engines are pretty remarkable things. Close to 1hp per cid and often more, from a 2 valve per cylinder pushrod setup (which does away with the menagerie of timing chains found on multi-cam, multi-valve engines), six bolt main caps... They last forever, parts and upgrades are cheap. I even like the slightly different sound they make with the revised firing order that doesn't have 5 and 7 firing right next to each other.

It does take a little more fettling to get and keep old stuff running reliably, but the process is the same as it's always been... the only things that have changed is that there are fewer people in shops, driveways, and on the street who are familiar with old tech. It's like it's so simple that it baffles. I've found that the majority of Studebaker parts aren't too hard to locate, though we have reached a point where the quality of some basics (think points, condensers, coils, fuel pumps, etc.) has slipped. With a little extra care, I'm still finding good stuff out there. I might reevaluate my stance if I reach a point where I can no longer count on my post-caveman tech to deliver me where I need to go reliably and economically, but it seems a ways off yet.

[6hk71400]

It is the 4.8 V8.it is reliable and comfortable. I took a trip to Bowling Green, Ky to visit my sister in November not a bit of trouble. I occasionally for about 30 seconds think about Bruce Sandburg's 64 Daytona but having to give up the Tahoe does eliminate that thought. I can go on a tank of gas for around a month since I don't drive as much as when I was working. The blue bus has 124K on the clock.