Engine: 58 259 into a 56 Champ flat 6

[23 cratae]

morning all,

im about to slide a 1958 vintage 259 & 3spd OD into my '56 Champ sedan where once a flat 6 lived..

aside from standard plumbing can anyone tell me where i could go wrong, extra mounts etc.

i know front eng mounts are different from flat 6 to V8, going backwards from there to trans mount ?

259 from a 58 pick up , has some pretty heavy mounts at the bellhousing

thanks

[PackardV8]

The truck 259" has several differences; water pump manifold, bellhousing, rear motor mounts, et al. The good news is the truck parts are less common and in demand, so you could swap or sell them for the car parts. The bad news is if you change the bellhousing, the replacement will have to be dial indicated to match the block.

jack vines

[23 cratae]

The truck 259" has several differences; water pump manifold, bellhousing, rear motor mounts, et al. The good news is the truck parts are less common and in demand, so you could swap or sell them for the car parts. The bad news is if you change the bellhousing, the replacement will have to be dial indicated to match the block.

jack vines

thanks Jack .

what do you mean by 'have to be dial indicated to match the block.' ?

[StudeRich]

1958 3E-7 or 12 Truck Engine to a '56 CHAMPION CAR:

Put simply, the Clutch Housings and Torque Converter Housings do NOT have the Locating Dowel Pins drilled in a perfect identical Pattern on each one, so that they do not interchange without Dial Indicating the Center-line of the Crank to the Trans. Mounting Hole in the Clutch Housing. and re-Drilling and Reaming the Dowel Holes in the Block and Housing for oversize Dowels.
Once the Factory mated PAIR is changed, this MUST be done.

There are dozens of Strings here about that, Plus the Studebaker Shop Manuals explain and describe that process.

When you Purchase the Correct Rear Engine Mount for a Car it will bolt to a V8 CAR Clutch Housing, also the Front Engine Mounts AND Brackets from a V8 Car will be needed, possibly a CAR Transmission and you will no longer need the Truck Cast Iron Rear Engine Mount BRACKETS ("tall "Legs") from your Truck Clutch Housing.
NOTHING mounting a Truck Engine will work in a Car, front or rear.

[23 cratae]

There are dozens of Strings here about that, Plus the Studebaker Shop Manuals explain and describe that process.[/QUOTE]

thanks Rich ,

both the flat 6 and the truck 8 are manual trans ....

so im shopping for a car bell housing + car manual gearbox mounts ( + dialing in the dowels to suit )

V8 car motor mounts , from block and rubber sandwich blocks


im new to Stude engine swaps please excuse my ignorance :-)

[Skip Lackie]

You would be well advised to purchase the chassis parts book (either paper or CD) for your 1956 Champion. A few hours of work would help you make a list of all of the differences between cars built with a 6 and V8. I haven't made that swap, but here are a few likely examples: shift linkage, throttle linkage, drive shaft, motor mounts, radiator, [edit: and brakes] and maybe front springs and steering linkage. Lots of people have done this and similar swaps, but it's a lot easier if you have a parts car to donate the parts that are unique to V8 vehicles (or at least know in advance what challenges you will encounter).

[RadioRoy]

I do not know when truck transmissions changed.

The car transmissions went from short transmission and two piece drive shaft in 57 and earlier, to long transmission and one piece drive shaft in 58 and newer.

The trucks generally had heavier transmissions than the cars did, so your truck transmission might be a T-85 (or equivalent) rather than the T-86 that would come in a V-8 car. That MIGHT mean a different bell housing, different motor mounts and maybe different drive shaft lengths. It also might mean finding a car transmission.

You really should get the parts catalogs and look things up. Everything is listed in them.

It may seem like a hassle, but studying the project before tearing into it can eliminate or lessen all the "gotchas" that are bound to come up.

[23 cratae]

Thanks Skip Lackie and Radio Roy.

think i will have to look at the chassis parts book / catalogue , thinking thats a good place to start

def a two piece driveshaft in the 56 ~ and a T85 manual .

its going to be a fun challenge !!

thanks guys !

[JoeHall]

So you have a truck 259, with truck T89 transmission behind it. Being from a truck, it has the truck WP manifold up front, and truck transmission, bell housing and mounts. I would consider the 259/T89 combo highly preferable over the wimpy T86 car transmission that was originally in OD equipped V8 cars. I'd definitely swap the WP out with one from a car, but would figure a way to mount the transmission as is. I just love it when folks tell me something cannot be done. Creativity is a talent some have and some don't. Biggest problem I see is the driveshaft. The T89 has a fixed yoke, so will need a driveshaft with floating one. If lucky, you also have the truck's driveshaft. If so, an the coating yoke is not worn out, you may be able to have the driveshaft shortened to fit. With the V8, a model 44 rear end would be preferable, and a 3.54 or 3.73 would be nice, but you could come back to that later. You'll also need heavier front coil springs, and a V8 anti sway bar, preferably from a 63 or later Stude V8. You'll also need a truck speedo cable, which is a simple swap in. Depending on rear end ratio, you may need a different speedometer pinion, but you can come back to that later. If the car originally had an automatic transmission, you'll need to come up with a shifter, and a floor shift is easiest. You'll also need an OD control cable, and all the electrics for the OD transmission.
Good luck, and ignore the naysayers.

[JoeHall]

You might wanna split the transmutation and motor, to inspect the clutch, throw out bearing and pilot bearing. While part, tack weld the clutch shaft ears to the shaft they are splined onto. (The fingers that push the t/o bearing.) Also inspect the flywheel ring gear teeth closely.

[PackardV8]

Agree, the truck T89 is a much stronger transmission than the T86/T90; I'm using a T89 behind the Packard V8 in my E12.

Yes, Joe is right for Joe and many talented fabricators here. It is to be hoped 23 cratae is one also. For those with a bit of ingenuity, the required mods to put a truck engine and transmission into a car are no big deal.

No, using truck mounts and modifying the driveshaft, throttle and shift linkage and all the fiddly bits is not for everyone. Several years back, I paid $100 for a complete '57 Silver Hawk and a truck 259". The owner had gotten frustrated trying the swap, "Everyone told me all Studebakers were the same, but nothing fits." Seems if any bolt hole didn't align, he couldn't imagine an alternative.

Maybe, 23 cratae might make a list of all the needed car bits, then swing in the truck engine and transmission and see how it fits. To be sure, making the truck rear mounts work in a car is probably no more labor than dial indicating a car bell housing swap.

jack vines

[23 cratae]

thanks JoeHall, im not sure why i need to "While part, tack weld the clutch shaft ears to the shaft they are splined onto. (The fingers that push the t/o bearing.)

Packard V8 im a body man by trade like engineering stuff as well, my son also an engineer. so should be able to make it work.. all the fiddly bits are standard for jobs like this, and done this before ..

water pump manifold ,, thats puzzling me ? the 58 259 looks to have the same waterpump as the 63 259 in my Lark , ive checked serial number on the lark and that fits with the car.. dimesnionally both pumps measure the same 'stick out" from the block.. maybe the earlier motor has a late model pump fitted


next question for my sanity ....

* dialing in the gearbox. ~ do i understand that each G/box was lined up to the crank on the assembly line?.. then bolt mounts drilled into the bell housing ?

thanks All

[StudeRich]

thanks JoeHall, im not sure why i need to "While part, tack weld the clutch shaft ears to the shaft they are splined onto. (The fingers that push the t/o bearing.)

The Splines are TOO weak and often break, they need beefing up especially with Truck Pressure Plates.

water pump Manifold ,, thats puzzling me ? the 58 259 looks to have the same water pump as the 63 259 in my Lark , I've checked serial number on the lark and that fits with the car.. dimensionally both pumps measure the same 'stick out" from the block.. maybe the earlier motor has a late model pump fitted;

If you check the Upper "Arms" to each Cyl. Head, the Truck unit angles UP to raise the fan to clear the Radiator bottom tank and properly Cool the Rad. by centering it.

next question for my sanity ....

* dialing in the gearbox. ~ do i understand that each G/box was lined up to the crank on the assembly line?.. then bolt mounts drilled into the bell housing ?

No, as I said way back in Post #4, the (2) DOWEL Holes were Drilled after the Block and Bell Housing were centered. The Bolt Holes are a LOOSE fit and do not center anything.

thanks All

TALK Talk talk, to allow a modified Quoted Post per the system requirements.!

[23 cratae]

thanks Stude Rich..

can you do a picture with this for clarity .. i understand that easy enough , ~ just for clarity i work in truck parts nowdays so very aware there are multiple descriptions for the same part :-)

re WP .. will check that .. forest for the trees !

Sorry yes you did say that .. i imagine i could measure a car housing, and redrill dowel holes fairly simply.. dowel's should slide out with a little effort im thinking?

[StudeRich]

It is difficult to see with the Engine in, but this Left Side View is as good as I have, a Modified '55 3/4 Ton Stakebed (with 1 Ton Dually Axle) that my Son Mike rebuilt and installed a '64 Daytona Wagonaire 259 V8 into, with a "C" Cab 1955 Truck Water Manifold installed.

The UPPER portion of the Manifold to the Heads, angles Upward raising the Water Pump and Water Outlet higher on the Block.


Truck wise Forum Members will say: "that is Not a '55 Cab, it has the '49-'54 small rear Window!
But what happened is, the Former owner before these Photos used a Back Wall from an Early Cab because He Could!