T10 trans swap

[jcstude]

I have a rebuilt T-10 that I'd like to put in my '57 Silver Hawk. It currently has a Flight-o-Matic with a one piece driveshaft. Can I use the flywheel, pressure plate, T/O bearing and starter from a '60 T-86? The pressure plate is a 10.5". How about the T-86 clutch linkage and T/O bearing fork? Some say the starter for the 4spd is different and using a 3spd starter will tear up the ring gear because the snout is a different length and the Bendix gear won't engage properly. If this is true, will moving the ring gear forward on the flywheel fix this? If not, anyone have a 4spd starter for sale?
Second related question: does Hurst (or anyone else) make a shifter for this tranny that I can use with my bench seat? I have the original shifter but it is pretty worn out, rusty and flimsy looking.
Thanks,
Lew in Escondido, CA

[N8N]

you'll need the clutch, flywheel, and linkage from a 12V, manual transmission C-K body. Also you will need an inner pivot for the clutch bellcrank from a 4-speed C-K, if you don't have that you will spend some time looking for it as they are starting to be scarce. Your existing starter will work but you will need a stickshift snout for it, otherwise just get the starter from your parts car. AFAIK there is no difference in flywheel, clutch, or starter between 3-speed and 4-speed. You'll also need the fiberglass floor plate for the 4-speed C-K.

you can use the hurst shifter but you will probably need to make a custom stick. my web site has a part number for a stick that works but it still hits the seat in 2nd gear unless you are over 6' tall. I'll probably cut it, lay it forward a little, and weld it back together.

Your choice how you want to deal with the driveshaft. Some people have just cut the front section of the 2-piece down and attached it to the 4-speed slip yoke, others cut the whole center x-member out and used a one piece. I think the 2-piece might be a better option, the one piece does hit the floor on a pre-58 body under heavy acceleration. I had a smaller diameter shaft made for my '55 as the x-member was already cut out for me but that is also not ideal as it is about 57" long so it is pushing the limits for a single piece shaft unless it is a large diameter. Probably shouldn't take it over 100 MPH

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[jcstude]

Nate, Thanks for the info. I have a driveshaft from a 4spd car that should work. A previous owner cut the crossmember to install the one piece driveshaft so that step is complete.
Do you have a 4spd car now? I'd be obliged if you could give me some reference points on the hole for the shifter. I'd hate to hack it up beyond the point of no return. I'm doing the job in my garage at home without a lift, so the trial and error method is not the best approach. I have the fiberglass cover, chrome shift boot hold down frame, tranny mount, and backup switch.
Regarding the clutch linkage, I'm not sure which scarce part you are refering to. Is it a bracket that locates the end of the clutch shaft on the outside of the bellhousing?
Thanks,
Lew in Escondido, CA

[Studeman]

Lew,

If your car is now an automatic, you will need a few other items and operations:
1) You will need LONGER bolts installed into the rear crankshaft hub- to accomidate the thicker flywheel mount. This involves removing the oil-pan and rear main bearing cap. Some people TAP the holes in the crank- and use bolts installed in "reverse" of original. IF I was to try that, I'd use STUDS instead- trimmed to length, and lock-tite them in.
2)You will need a Manual-Transmission Flywheel. The 4-speed FW has ~133 Teeth (IIRC). You can use either a 10" or 10 1/2" Clutch disc- but be sure to match the pressure plate to it.
3)Get a HURST shifter for a 1963 Chevy Biscayne w/4-sp. You will have to custom-build your own shifter handle. Either by modifying the Hurst handle or re-creating the '61 Hawk (or Bucket-seat Lark) style handle (curved forward then back- see pic)

4)Linkage- All the linkages from your parts-car are a direct bolt-in. The hard part to come up with is the mount that bolts to the transmission case itself. (I have extra linkages if you should need a part or 2).
5) Speedometer- Have fun finding a 4-speed cable, or the Adapter for the 4-speed tailshaft.
6) IF you have the Hawk 4-speed driveshaft, it should just bolt-in. You "may" have to use a different rear U-joint- but I don't recall that being necessary.
7) The 4-speed starter has a longer snout than the manual transmission starter. You "can" use the MTS- but be SURE it has a good bendix. It will eventually wear the teeth on the ring gear.

8) What is your rear axle ratio? Anything 3.31 and higher- you'll be pretty unhappy with low-speed performance. I think the 3.73 is the best ratio for a Hawk 4-speed. UNLESS you plan on LOTS of highway cruising.
9)You will need to rig your own back-up light switch. The Hawk one is difficult to find. making the harness is easy if you do happen to find an original switch.
10). I have the fiberglass pan, and section of floor (cut from a '61 Hawk 4-sp)- that you can use as a template (see pic)


Ray



Specializing in Studebaker Restoration

[jcstude]

Ray,

I wish I lived closer to you so we could go face-to-face on this. I've enjoyed your contributions to the Club website there in NC.

You included a pic of my dream Hawk. I think the '61 4spd is as cool as they come. My '57 Silver Hawk is an amalgam of various years. I recently made my own door panels and rear qtrs patterned after the '59 interior. I looks great and I only spent about $100 for all the materials including the stainless mouldings. I have worn out bucket seats from a '62 GT but the upholstery on my bench is pretty new so I will stick with that for the time being.

I have a flywheel, 4spd tranny mount, fiberglass pan, and back-up switch. Since my ring gear is not the greatest, I thought I might replace it with a new one and move it 1/8" closer to the starter bendix so the 3spd starter would engage properly. Your opinion?

Right now I am running tall 3.07 gears in the rear. I have another rear end that I picked up (condition unknown) with 3.31 gears. I would use this car mostly for weekend outings and not drag racing. As long as I don't have to slip the clutch too much to get it rolling in parades I can live with it. I thought about putting in a Tremec like Dan Miller but I have most of the (paid for) parts to do the T10 already.

Regarding the speedo cable, was the tailshaft match up unique to Stude or could my local speedo shop graft a Chevy/Ford/Chrysler/AMC gear to a Stude cable?

Are you offering the cut out sheetmetal as a template? If so, I will happily pay the round trip postage. Could I include all my clutch linkage bits for you to compare and add any missing incorrect parts which I will also happily pay for? I am not in a hurry, so don't feel pressured. Address please?

Cheers,
Lew

[Studeman]

I might be able to cut you a (large) paper template to cut the shifter hole... I have a raw-body here that I can get measurements from.

Take a look at this pic- and tell me what parts you DON'T have.
**Parts E,G,H will look different than the pic- but You'll know if you have something similar. I have ALL the parts you may not have.



Ray


Specializing in Studebaker Restoration

[N8N]

if you have the 'glass part, use that for your template. it will only fit in the exact correct location. I started the hole in my '55 with an air nibbler and just carefully enlarged it until it worked.

I have some but not a complete set of pics. If I get the car on the lift this weekend I can take more. a 3" driveshaft is awful close to a lot of stuff; if you have a factory one that "will work" it's probably 3" minimum. JDP got me in touch with a guy that was willing to make one to my spec (duplicate of stock but 2-3/4") for a reasonable price.

Forgot to mention you will need the slip yoke and speedo cable from a 4-speed car as well. Speedo drive pinion is different from all other B-W trans used in Studes so speedo drive parts are all unique to 4-speed. Part "G" in Ray's diagram is the 3-speed style not 4-speed, you need that unique 4-speed part as it bolts to the side cover of the trans not the underside as shown in the diagram.

Finally you may find that you need to use pinion angle shims on your rear axle to tame the vibes after you are all done. I did on my car but I changed the whole drivetrain all at once; I don't know if I should blame the 4-speed, the single piece driveshaft (car was never set up correctly prior to my working on it; it'd had a crudely installed '63 Lark 289/FOM when I got it and it needed some minor tweaks like the correct C-K throttle bellcrank and throttle pressure linkage, correct exhaust, and correct driveshaft as well as aforementioned pinion angle shims, although I had to redo pinion angle after 4-speed swap) or the swap to a later rear end. I have yet to get a solid answer on whether the rear axle spring perches were welded on at a different angle relative to the pinion on 58-up as opposed to 57 and prior (springs, hangers, and driveshaft were all changed for the 58 model year. I used a late model TT rear in my 55 build)

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[N8N]

while we're on the subject, Ray, do you have a low angle shot of the correct shifter handle installed in the car showing where the curve starts relative to the floor? I had a factory 4-speed handle cut off and welded to a Hurst shifter stub but I think it is too tall to be 100% correct appearing, it feels like it comes up higher than I remember it with the stock shifter. OF course I did not take any pics of the stock shifter installed before I blew it all apart again.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[Studeman]

quote:Originally posted by N8N

while we're on the subject, Ray, do you have a low angle shot of the correct shifter handle installed in the car showing where the curve starts relative to the floor? I had a factory 4-speed handle cut off and welded to a Hurst shifter stub but I think it is too tall to be 100% correct appearing, it feels like it comes up higher than I remember it with the stock shifter. OF course I did not take any pics of the stock shifter installed before I blew it all apart again.

N8,
The pinch-bolt area that mounts the Hurst shift handle- is ALOT higher than a Stude shifter. Even when correctly mounted, it will push up the rubber shift-boot about 1/2". So, you need to start your forward turn IMMEDIATELY above the shift handle pinch-bolts. I leave about 1/4" of "vertical" rod sticking up from the adapter I fabricate- so that the hole in the shift-boot can remain "flat" against the top of the pinch-bolt area (if ya know what I mean).
Still, a few years of daily-driving, and the boot will tear.
I might be able to get you a pic tommorrow....

Ray


Specializing in Studebaker Restoration

[sals54]

Lew,
In the exploded view of the clutch there are a few of those pieces I have made from scratch.
Part H can be made from rod and hiem joints or the like. Part D can be made from water pipe in a pinch or from some other pipe of the same dimensions as schedule 40 pipe but with stronger characteristics, chrome moly, etc. Part G can be made by modifying one from another type of trans. I made mine from a 3 speed and bolted it to piece I welded to fit the trans. These pieces have been working for me for years.
Just a thought so you can get the thing on the road and replace them as you find the original pieces.

[jcstude]

Ray and Nate,

Thanks for all the good feedback. I was in my attic trying to find all the clutch parts (had to move stuff around in a hurry awhile back due to a roof leak), when I got volunteered to drive my son to his job (will start the search again tomorrow). I have three different versions of 'G'. I have a parts car but it is also a flightomatic (62 GT). The clutch parts I have are 'donations' from clubmembers clearing out their junk piles so the vintage and application is unknown.

No one has addressed the question about changing the ring gear placement on the flywheel to fix the starter mis-match.

Cheers,
Lew

[N8N]

There is no question of changing the ring gear placement, you need the correct starter nose, period.

I'm not even certain that an automatic starter would engage at all on a stickshift...

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight

http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[jcstude]

Nate,

Why can't you read my mind? darn, you are just like my wife ! I agree that an automatic starter will not work. However, since 3spd starters are readily available, I was thinking of using one of those with the ring gear repositioned on the flywheel 1/8" closer to the bendix gear.

Thanks,
Lew

[59r2]

I have a hawk pivot bracket I purchased from jm. Let me know if your interested.

1959 HARDTOP R2 clone
1960 conv
SDC member since 1972

[Studeman]

quote: I have three different versions of 'G'. The clutch parts I have are 'donations' from clubmembers clearing out their junk piles so the vintage and application is unknown.

Send me a photo of what you have- and I'll fill in the rest of your needs. Either with stuff I have - or stuff you need to look for.

quote:No one has addressed the question about changing the ring gear placement on the flywheel to fix the starter mis-match.

I don't think it can be done- the ring gear on a manual trans flywheel isn't remove-able. It's all one-piece. You might find a ring-gear the proper dimentions, teeth, etc.. but it would take ALOT of machining. Take your tape-measure to the swap-meets and pick up a used starter/nose. Studebaker made enough 4-speeds that you should be able to find one. The noses don't wear out, once you have one...you can install it on a bunch of different starters.

Ray



Specializing in Studebaker Restoration