Comment Directly To EPA on Higher Ethanol

[HOXXOH]

Non-ethanol fuel is also available at marinas everywhere. You may have to transport it in your own container, since the pump locations aren't real automobile friendly. lol

[Kurt]

Their do seem to be stations, at least in my area, that carry non ethanol gas in my part of the world. A few years ago that was not the case. I use straight gas in my small engines, old cars, and one old tractor. I can and have made ethanol work, but like others have said, you can't let it sit. As for the percentage in gas, the more the better. Corn is cheap. It sells for less than break even right now. The by products,called distillers grain, are used for animal feed. So you truly double up the value of each bushel of corn. My modern vehicles don't care and we are using resources produced at home.

[53k]

...There is a reason that the instructions for my chains saws, weed-whacker, etc warn against using gas that is more than 30 days old. My older chain saw is now unusable because the plastic in the fuel system swelled up to the point that it won't run. ...

I can certainly echo Skip's experience with ethanol-laced fuels in small engines. For the past few years I have been fortunate enough to be able to buy "real" gasoline locally, but every small engine I have suffered problems before I switched. Cases in point- two Echo engines, one on a string trimmer and one on a Mantis tiller. Both suffered carburetor problems due to crumbling rubber gas lines. On the string trimmer the tank gas cap came apart (not easy to find a replacement for a 1983 engine). two Gravely tractors- carburetor clogs also from crumbling gas lines (which I did replace after the fact with ethanol resistant lines). Both tractors had gas caps that had floats that served as gas gauges. Both caps swelled to the point that they were unusable (couldn't take off or put back on). The Magnum 20 Kohler on one tractor has an aluminum carburetor. The ethanol gas eroded it to the point that the non-replaceable needle valve seat would no longer shut off fuel when the engine wasn't running. New carburetors priced at $225 are NLA even from the Kohler factory. So, I have to be careful to always shut off the fuel when turning off the engine. If I don't, the cylinders will fill with gasoline (on a Gravely the five gallon gas tank is higher than the rear engine so gasoline will flow by gravity). The gasoline also seeps in to the crankcase. I have had to drain the gasoline/oil mix at least a dozen times over the recent years, refill the oil and change the oil filter, all because I can't seem to remember to always shut off the gasoline. The only small engine I have that didn't seem to be bothered by the E-10 was my 1990 Stihl chainsaw (but it gets the "real" gas now too).

Another consideration- I don't know if "modern" cars would get better gas mileage with "real" gas or not, but one day when I was filling my gas cans with the 100% gasoline a man in an old Jeep Cherokee pulled in to the next pump and filled his tank with the "real" gas even though it was 20 cents a gallon more than the E-10 87 octane gas. He told me that he drives 25 miles to come to this station to fill up, but he said he gets enough better mileage to both justify the trip and paying the higher price.

Brazil has had a successful ethanol fuel program since the 1930s. At one point in the '80s all cars manufactured in Brazil were E100 capable. Yes, pure ethanol, but the ethanol is sugar cane based. But politics are involved there too. Even so, with Brazil's discovery of offshore oil, gasoline is still ethanol-laced at varying percentages and 100% ethanol is still sold at gas stations and it is considerably cheaper than gasoline. I took this rather poor picture of a Texaco station in Rio de Janerio. Alcool is 100% ethanol. There is an interesting read about this subject on Wikipedia- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

[Flat Ernie]

Ethanol fuel is about politics and subsidies, not fuel economy or clean air. Period.

Alcohol has about half the BTU content of gasoline so you have to burn about twice as much alcohol as gasoline to produce the same power. It is difficult to understand how it could possibly increases MPG. Even if ethanol fuel is 10% cleaner, if you burn 15% more, you're still polluting more...so even the clean air argument is moot.

It's about subsidies. Nothing else.

And alcohol-free gas near me is always $0.75+ more, and always more expensive than premium. That's generally because of supply and demand...

[tsenecal]

My wife drives a 2002 Toyota 4-runner. It runs alright on 10% ethanol, but in the summer, if the temperature gets over 90 degrees or so, the ethanol fuel "boils" in the tank. You can pull it into the garage after a drive in hot weather, and hear it boiling, (more so with the cap off) I started running non ethanol, and the problem went away. Google has a lot of information on the topic.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Ethanol fuel is about politics and subsidies, not fuel economy or clean air. Period.

Alcohol has about half the BTU content of gasoline so you have to burn about twice as much alcohol as gasoline to produce the same power. It is difficult to understand how it could possibly increases MPG. Even if ethanol fuel is 10% cleaner, if you burn 15% more, you're still polluting more...so even the clean air argument is moot.

It's about subsidies. Nothing else.

And alcohol-free gas near me is always $0.75+ more, and always more expensive than premium. That's generally because of supply and demand...

Plenty of politics for sure. Pretty much big oil vs big agribusiness. .

BTW, we subsidize big oil with more taxpayer dollars than we do the ethanol industry (and more than all renewable energy sources combined).

A 2009 study by the Environmental Law Institute[29] assessed the size and structure of U.S. energy subsidies in 2002–08. The study estimated that subsidies to fossil fuel-based sources totaled about $72 billion over this period and subsidies to renewable fuel sources totaled $29 billion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies



Gasoline has 114,500 BTUs per gallon. Ethanol has 76,100. E10 (which is what is sold at most pumps) has 111,836 BTUs per gallon

http://www.hho4free.com/gasoline_vs_ethanol.html

2.3% fewer BTUs. I'm not sure you could measure the difference in fuel economy or performance in normal driving.


Plenty of downsides to ethanol laced gas...especially for our older cars. The biggest problem, however, is what to replace it with as an octane enhancer and oxygenator. Both lead and MTBE worked but were killing us doing it.

[Dick Steinkamp]

My wife drives a 2002 Toyota 4-runner. It runs alright on 10% ethanol, but in the summer, if the temperature gets over 90 degrees or so, the ethanol fuel "boils" in the tank. You can pull it into the garage after a drive in hot weather, and hear it boiling, (more so with the cap off) I started running non ethanol, and the problem went away. Google has a lot of information on the topic.

The boiling point of gasoline is 102 F. The boiling point of Ethanol is 173F.

http://www.firehouse.com/article/105...r-is-it-part-2

[HOXXOH]

The boiling point of gasoline is 102 F. The boiling point of Ethanol is 173F.

http://www.firehouse.com/article/105...r-is-it-part-2

That article only stated the minimum temperature for the boiling point, not the maximum temperature which is close to 400 F.

[lumpy]

Hey Dick , I would like to see a truly honest boiling point comparison ... because here in CA ever since it was introduced it has induced hard start heat soaked conditions in most all classic vehicles . Some carbs way more prone than others..ie edelbrock and carter 4bbls. Let it sit 20-30 minutes on a hot day and its not gonna fire right off. This is not my Imagination lots of talk on line about this subject.

[lumpy]

And is that e10 ,e15 e20 , or what blend ? or straight ethanol?

[HOXXOH]

Hey Dick , I would like to see a truly honest boiling point comparison ... because here in CA ever since it was introduced it has induced hard start heat soaked conditions in most all classic vehicles . Some carbs way more prone than others..ie edelbrock and carter 4bbls. Let it sit 20-30 minutes on a hot day and its not gonna fire right off. This is not my Imagination lots of talk on line about this subject.

The boiling point is subject to change for several factors, including the additives, octane rating, and barometric pressure. The coefficient of thermal expansion also comes into play when discussing carbs. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cu...ts-d_1262.html

[tsenecal]

I originally posted about the 2002 4-runner. I used the term boiling, but maybe "percolate" or some other term would fit better. When you park the car, it sounds almost like the fuel pump is still running. The sound comes from the fuel tank, and is obviously louder with the cap off. I even disconnected the battery the first time that I heard it, thinking the pump had somehow stayed energized. This all went away with non-ethanol fuel. Google has a lot of Toyota owners with the same symptoms.

[Dan Timberlake]

Brandy new Husqvarna power equipment is OK with E10, with reservations and restrictions.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/basics/ethanol-free-fuel/

More than E10 is forbidden. Granted, there may be some incentives ( their own premixed fuel ) and avoiding some warrantee claims.
"Ethanol is also an excellent solvent. Simply put, it will dissolve plastic, rubber, fiberglass and much more, potentially causing serious problems to small engines."

But I don't think the effects of the underlying chemistry are made up.