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View Full Version : Is this a Studebaker engine? (w/ pics)



Ceol
07-24-2006, 12:31 AM
As part of a deal I recently acquired a flathead 6-cylnder engine that had been retrofitted into Jeep. The engine apparently runs decently, but the owner didn't know what make or model it is. I think I've narrowed it down to being a Studebaker, but that's as far as I got. Can anyone confirm that, or (better yet) identify what model of engine it is?

I did find what I think is a casting number on the lower right (passenger) side of the block. The number is 1548332-3.

Thanks!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/georgebudney/jeepwork047.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/georgebudney/jeepwork046.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/georgebudney/jeepwork043.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j232/georgebudney/jeepwork045.jpg

Dwain G.
07-24-2006, 01:43 AM
It certainly looks like a Champion engine, but I don't have that casting number in my files. Besides, the casting number should be on the driver's side, very low on the block and just forward of the distributor. Clean that area with a wire bush and check the number again. Also on the drivers side, check for a stamped engine number at top, front of engine block

Dwain G.

53k
07-24-2006, 10:10 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dwain G.

It certainly looks like a Champion engine, but I don't have that casting number in my files. Besides, the casting number should be on the driver's side, very low on the block and just forward of the distributor. Clean that area with a wire bush and check the number again. Also on the drivers side, check for a stamped engine number at top, front of engine block

Dwain G.

That would be my guess too. Studebaker engine-to-Jeep swaps were actually fairly common years ago. Even a Champion engine was a power house compared to the Jeep engines.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

Jerry Johnson
07-24-2006, 10:51 AM
It sure looks like the engine like I have in a 51 Champ. It's a six L-head engine with a displacement of 169.6 cu. and develops 85 hp @2400 rpm. Uses a full pressure lubrication system. Your engine has the same motor mount location as the 51 I have. However the casting number for the engine I have is located just above the pan, in the center of the engine, on the drivers side and is 524807-14. Also check the head casting number, on mine it is 529218. There should be a engine serial number on that flat spot you see on your engine just behind the water pump on the drivers side. Clean off that spot and post the number.

Regards,
Jerry Johnson

gordr
07-24-2006, 08:27 PM
It's definitely a Champion six, can't tell if its a 170 or 185 from here.

If you look close at the second picture from the top, you can see the serial number boss on the block just below the alternator stay brace.

Read the number STAMPED into that boss, and it should be possible to definitively identify it. Studebaker used an upper-case "I" to represent the numeral "1", by the way.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

Ceol
07-24-2006, 08:51 PM
Thanks, guys! You've been more help than anyone else I've asked about this.

I'll be working on this engine with a friend, and it's currently at her place. I've asked her to check on the number behind the alternator.

A few other detail we noticed this past weekend:

One of the valve covers has stamped in it "VALVE CLEAR .015 COLD".

There are a couple characters cast into the top of the head (you can see them in the second photo). One distinct one is kind of an odd looking capital "N".

The carb that was mounted on it (the carb and manifold were detached when I got them) is a Carter model BBR-1.

Do there facts support it being a Champion engine? Better yet, are they be enough to determine a specific engine model?

Dwain G.
07-25-2006, 12:05 AM
The 'N' could certainly be part of a date code.

Dwain G.

DilloCrafter
07-25-2006, 12:53 AM
On trucks, at least, the oil filler tube is toward the back of the block, aft of the distributor. Is the oil filler tube that far forward in Champion cars?

Here's a Champion engine from the 1950 Stude truck brochure, next to a commander engine:

p.s. Sorry, guys. I thought I had edited it so that a thumbnail showed up. Let me do that again:

Click thumbnail for much larger image.
http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Studebaker/1950/Truck/Thumbs/tn_StudebakerTruck_1950_02.jpg (http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Studebaker/1950/Truck/Images/StudebakerTruck_1950_02.jpg)

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

55sedan
07-25-2006, 09:18 AM
Yes, that is where the oil filler tube is on my 185. The fuel line in the top photo is also going to where the fuel pump should be.

1955 Champion Deluxe 2dr.

60Lark
07-25-2006, 12:30 PM
Wow - That Pic is easy to see, even without my glases [8D]

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc00b3127cce8b441ec7192c00000000100CcNWTlozYsb http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc03b3127cce970d7aafd15f00000010100CcNWTlozYsb
Studebaker Fever
60 Lark
51 Champion
Phil
Arnold, Missouri

Ceol
07-25-2006, 06:22 PM
I should have a number for you guys this evening, but in the meantime here's a photo of the markings on the top of the head. Any idea what they mean?

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n247/Ceol_02/topmarkings.jpg

Dwain G.
07-25-2006, 07:06 PM
That is an 8-hour 'clock' and a day-night shift indicator. I think the date code is below it and appears to end in an 'O'. For some reason Stude often tried to obliterate the date codes.

Dwain G.

Transtar60
07-25-2006, 10:12 PM
quote:Originally posted by DilloCrafter

On trucks, at least, the oil filler tube is toward the back of the block, aft of the distributor. Is the oil filler tube that far forward in Champion cars?

Here's a Champion engine from the 1950 Stude truck brochure, next to a commander engine:

p.s. Sorry, guys. I thought I had edited it so that a thumbnail showed up. Let me do that again:

Click thumbnail for much larger image.
http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Studebaker/1950/Truck/Thumbs/tn_StudebakerTruck_1950_02.jpg (http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Studebaker/1950/Truck/Images/StudebakerTruck_1950_02.jpg)

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas


Isnt it amazing how the engines in Stude brochures are almost never painted same colors as actual engines.<G>

Ceol
07-25-2006, 11:06 PM
Alright, we found an engine serial number! It's 527169, followed by a superscript "9" over a subscript "RC". Can someone point me to where I can find some engine specs based on that?

whacker
07-25-2006, 11:19 PM
Looks like it is a 1955 Champion 185 CI. Look it up here:

http://www.studebakerdriversclub.com/tech_6data.asp

Probably about mid model year.

Dwain G.
07-26-2006, 12:45 AM
Ceol,
Is that a stamped number? Where on the engine block is it located? Still need more info, but for now I'm calling it a 1950 engine.

Everyone else, is that engine number chart on the SDC site all screwed up for you? The rows of numbers are out of line for me, I don't know how you can read it!

Dwain G.

Ceol
07-26-2006, 08:35 AM
The number is stamped, and located on the top front driver's side of the block, behind the water pump.

Also, my friend who has the engine at the moment tells me that the "5" in the number might actually be an "S" - she's not sure.

Dick Steinkamp
07-26-2006, 10:38 AM
quote:Originally posted by Dwain G.

Ceol,
Is that a stamped number? Where on the engine block is it located? Still need more info, but for now I'm calling it a 1950 engine.

Everyone else, is that engine number chart on the SDC site all screwed up for you? The rows of numbers are out of line for me, I don't know how you can read it!

Dwain G.


Rows are in line for me, Dwain. If the stamped number is 527169 then it is a '50 Champion 170 cubic inch engine. I've never heard of the subscript and superscript, however. If it is a '50 Champion, I believe they were 80 HP. Once you pin down the year of your engine, get the appropriate reproduced shop manual from any number of Studebaker parts vendors. All the specs will be in there. All parts are available to rebuild you motor if you desire to do that. If there are any missing or broken parts, I'm sure members of this Forum can help you out.



http://thenobot.org/images/s2d/s2d_01.jpg

DilloCrafter
07-26-2006, 01:35 PM
I understand what Dwain is talking about (the rows and numbers being all messed up) and I know why it's doing that.

(Warning - Geeky HTML explanation here)
When that web page was made, someone painstakingly put in line break tags after each item, doing this within separate tall table cells, all in one very tall table row. This looks fine as long as your monitor screen size is wide enough. But if you narrow your browser window enough, you'll see the lines begin to get messed up, as Dwain experienced.

THE SOLUTION:
This may be a job for Mr. Shaw, as he is the webmaster. That page (and perhaps the 8 cyl. engine data page, too - I haven't looked) need to be worked on in an HTML editor. There should be a unique table row with three table cells for each line in that table. Looks like a pain to do, but it must be done, in my opinion.

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

Dwain G.
07-26-2006, 04:21 PM
Another thing I noticed is that it is in cronological oreder based on the first row only! In the second row, the model years are all scrambled up.

Dwain G.

Dwain G.
07-26-2006, 04:30 PM
Here is a sample of the letter style Studebaker used in their engine number stamps. These are pencil 'rubbings' from six cylinder engines. From top to bottom, a 1960, a 1963, and a 1964. There is a very distinct difference in the letter 'S' and the number '5'. Also notice the number '1' looks like a capitol letter 'I'. It isn't though. Studebaker didn't use the letter 'I' in car or engine serial numbers.
http://home.comcast.net/~jdwain/eng.nos.jpg

Dwain G.

Ceol
07-26-2006, 09:07 PM
I'll show that rubbing photo to my friend, and comfirm whether we have a 5 or an S.

In the meantime, I noticed that on that specs page, the engine is called a "Champion (9G)". Can anyone tell me what the "(9G)" means?

Roscomacaw
07-26-2006, 09:17 PM
9G would be the factory designation for a 1950 Champion automobile (a 1950 Champion would havea a 169.6cu.in. flathead 6).
8G would be a '49. 10G would be a '51 and 12G would be a '52 (they skipped 11G & 13G in the sequence and then only went to 16G ('55 Champion) before switching the designators to a different code.

That superscript 9 over an RC might be someone's code to show that this was a replacement block. Just guessing of course, but I'd bet dealers did such things to track repairs they did. Often, they'd have transferred the original engine number because it was common in that era to use engine numbers for VIN numbers.[B)] Seems goofy by today's standards but then alot of what we take for granted of our world would FLOOR someone from 1950![:0]

Miscreant at large.

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS

Dwain G.
07-26-2006, 11:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mr.Biggs


That superscript 9 over an RC might be someone's code to show that this was a replacement block. Just guessing of course, but I'd bet dealers did such things to track repairs they did. Often, they'd have transferred the original engine number because it was common in that era to use engine numbers for VIN numbers.[B)] Seems goofy by today's standards but then alot of what we take for granted of our world would FLOOR someone from 1950![:0]
__________________________
I wondered the same thing Bob. I also sat and doodled with that 9RC trying to turn it into a cloverleaf.









1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe
1957 President 2-dr
1955 President State
1951 Champion Biz cpe
1963 Daytona project FS


Dwain G.

Walt Zander
07-27-2006, 08:34 AM
Ceol
"I should have a number for you guys this evening, but in the meantime here's a photo of the markings on the top of the head. Any idea what they mean?"

The pointer located between the D and N, indicates which shift cast the head - Day or Night. That is what I was told as a youngster.
But I was told a lot which escaped me then and now.[8D]



'49 Champion Starlight Coupe
1936 Miller Replica/ Stude driveline
Fond du Lac,Wisconsin

keeffer
08-02-2006, 07:29 PM
what that engine is, is a continential engine used by studebaker, dodge,
pylmouth,nash ,and forklifts

keith kirchhoff
brockport ny 14420

Transtar60
08-02-2006, 09:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by keeffer

what that engine is, is a continential engine used by studebaker, dodge,
pylmouth,nash ,and forklifts

keith kirchhoff
brockport ny 14420


Sorry Keith but thats a Champion engine, a very common swap into Jeeps
as it bolted right up to the Jeeps T-84/T90 tranny

The only question is what year/cubic inch that it is.
Studebaker built their own engines with few exceptions,
like diesel trucks and the 65-66's

keeffer
08-02-2006, 11:38 PM
it looks just like my 49 dodge flathead six

keith kirchhoff
brockport ny 14420

DilloCrafter
08-03-2006, 12:23 AM
Keith,
Thanks for bringing up that Continental engine. I had no knowledge of it, so a web search turned up this page with a photo and the statement that they were used in countless industrial applications:
http://www.foleyengines.com/TechTips/TechTip36.html

I also found a page that said Jeep started putting the flathead 6 Continental motor in some Jeep pickups, but discontinued it because, in the website author's opinion, it "was a lemon":
http://www.vannattabros.com/truck49.html

http://rocketdillo.com/studebaker/misc/images/Current_Avacar.gif[/img=left] - DilloCrafter

1955 1/2 Ton Pickup
[i]The Red-Headed Amazon
Deep in the heart of Texas

Transtar60
08-03-2006, 07:47 AM
Dillo,
Thats why the Stude V8 was a popular swap into Jeep Pickups and Wagons.
My Dad unfortunately had a 2wd Jeep wagon in the early sixties.
Dont know if it had a Conti engine but he traded it for a 48 Chevy sedan after the timing chain broke.

Guido
08-03-2006, 12:16 PM
I had a '62 Willys 4 wheel drive wagon when I was in college and it had the Super Hurricane 226 CID flathead 6 cylinder motor that was originally used in the Kaiser's. My brother has a '48 CJ2A that he bought in around 1976 that has a 134 CID flathead motor. I have a 134 CID Continental in both my Cockshutt 20 and Oliver 440 farm tractors, but I do not know if they are the same as the Willys.

Guido Salvage - "Where rust is beautiful"

1946 M-16 fire truck
1948 M-16 grain truck
1949 2R16A grain truck
1949 2R17A fire truck
1955 E-38 grain truck
1957 3E-40 flatbed
1961 6E-28 grain truck
1962 7E-13D 4x4 rack truck
1962 7E-7 Champ pickup
1962 GT Hawk 4 speed
1964 Avanti R2 4 speed
1964 Cruiser
And various other "treasures"
Hiding and preserving Studebakers in Richmond & Louisa, Va.

crazyfoci
09-28-2006, 10:58 AM
This is a great thread. You guys really know your stuff. I have a question and Ive read this thread at least five times and I cant wrap my melon around how you came up with the fact its a 4g engine I cant get the numbers on that sheet to talk to me. With the number that was given I dont see how you deciphered it
I have a stude flathead 6 thats has 611649 stamped on the boss behind the water pump and I cant find it on that list what am I doing wrong?

Why yes I am insane thanks for asking
St Paul MN