Electrical: R2 Manual Starter Bendix Rebuild Lubrication Oil Grease ???

[tomhoo]

I went through my starter (new bushings, brushes, and resurface commutator) and saw no mention of any kind of lubricant in the shop manual.

Knowing that oil/grease can accumulate dirt AND the existence of self-lubricating bushings (Oilite), I did not lube it.

It works but it still "grinds" which it did since day one in 1974. And the bendix is not engaging fast enough.

So I'm thinking I need to lube the bushings. White lithium grease is my guess but I really don't know what is customary.

Also contemplating a 4 field pole modification.

EDIT:

Just found some interesting tips on the bushings:

• soak overnight in oil
• "push" ATF through the bushing (stand bushing upright on your thumb, fill with ATF to top, put index finger on top and squeeze for all you're worth - you will see the ATF start to seep out of the bushing OD)

Then of course the usual grease, oil, etc.

[jimmijim8]

A healthy regular starter is ok I believe. cheers jimmijim

[tomhoo]

It's actually worse after I rebuilt it. Of course the old one was "oily."

I did not soak the bushings. (Didn't know at the time.)

[TWChamp]

What was the original problem with the starter, and what is the current problem? You mention slow, but if you are testing it with jumper cables, that is likely the problem.
As far as the helix that the Bendix spins on, it must be free of rust, dirt, and heavy oil or grease. I give it a coat of light oil, such as ATF.
For the bushings I use motor oil and a drop of Mystik JT-6 High Temp red grease. I quit using white lithium more than 10 years ago, after I found it dries out. I now use Mystik JT-6 high temp red grease for everything from wheel bearings to U joints. It's a very sticky grease that clings to the parts better than other greases I've tried over the years.

I have a 1946 M-5 and the Bendix wouldn't engage after the truck had been parked for a long time. Turns out the mice had gone through the bellhousing hole and peed on the drive. I removed the starter and cleaned and lubed it, but a month later I had the same problem again. Mice love holes in metal parts, so I need to make a screen to push in the hole.

[tomhoo]

It's hard to describe what the starter was doing. It always worked but it was slow and made a growling noise like maybe there wasn't enough voltage or brush tension was on the low side - I'm completely guessing at these.

When I rebuilt it, everything was clean and NO lube of any kind anywhere. Lube attracts dirt, right?

Now the Bendix doesn't engage quickly so the teeth grind when I start it. I don't remember distinctly, but in winter temps, it may not engage at all - would have to repeatedly spin the starter to get it to move.

I have very little time on the rebuild so the bushings should be good.

I think all it needs is some oil here and there and/or light grease. The bushings should be impregnated with oil which I didn't do either.

It does have a trunk mounted battery and I have a very heavy arc welding cable taking the +ive to the starter relay on the inner fender.

However, now that I think about this, the negative wire goes to the body mount to the cross member that is just behind the back of the rear seat. So it has to travel through the cross member, up the frame, through engine mounts, ground strap to block, and then starter. That path is definitely longer and if running the ground from a conventional located battery directly to the starter improves things, then I've really unimproved them.

Still, the Bendix is not engaging smoothly, so I still have to R&R the starter.

But maybe I should just run another arc welding cable to the engine block...

NOTE: I have been thinking of moving the battery back to stock location, but the improvement of turn in transient when I removed the front bumper, moving the battery to over the rear axle should further improve steering response. I didn't put the battery by the back bumper because of high polar moment of inertia. Of course in the rear it probably doesn't matter much since its all about turn in.

[GinettaG12P]

Use a jumper cable from the negative pole of the battery to the starter case or flange and see if speed and engagement improves. The results should tell you if you need to improve engine grounding.

[TWChamp]

I would take the starter back apart and lube the bushings. A growling starter is often the sign of an armature rubbing on the field pole shoes. Most times it's just the worn bushing on the drive end. Use an analog volt meter and read the voltage at the starter while the starter is cranking the engine.This will let you know if you have serious voltage drop between the battery and starter. Also lay an inductive ammeter on the starter cable while cranking, to see if the starter is drawing too many amps. Recently a couple Model A guys rebuilt their starters and had the brushes clocked wrong. This will give a slow or no turning condition.

Also, I hope you didn't undercut the commutator, as that is NOT to be done on starters.

[dickeedee]

lube

I went through my starter (new bushings, brushes, and resurface commutator) and saw no mention of any kind of lubricant in the shop manual.

Knowing that oil/grease can accumulate dirt AND the existence of self-lubricating bushings (Oilite), I did not lube it.

It works but it still "grinds" which it did since day one in 1974. And the bendix is not engaging fast enough.

So I'm thinking I need to lube the bushings. White lithium grease is my guess but I really don't know what is customary.

Also contemplating a 4 field pole modification.

EDIT:

Just found some interesting tips on the bushings:

• soak overnight in oil
• "push" ATF through the bushing (stand bushing upright on your thumb, fill with ATF to top, put index finger on top and squeeze for all you're worth - you will see the ATF start to seep out of the bushing OD)

Then of course the usual grease, oil, etc.

you could try spray graphite- doesn't attract dirt.

[Dan Timberlake]

A voltage drop test when cranking might/can/WILL reveal cables or connections worth improving.
Just Requires a helper to turn the key and a digital multimeter.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

[63 R2 Hawk]

Regarding your question about Oillite bushings, the "proper" way to lube them is by submerging them in an oil filled vacuum chamber (I don't recall what oil the mfgr specifies) and cycling between high vac and atmosphere for several cycles. This will impregnate the bushing with oil and they should last a long time if properly lubed. I did this years ago when working for a company that used Oillite bushings that we had to ream for a presision fit. Any time they are machined or washed in degreaser they are supposed to be reimpregnated with oil by this method. Like most of us, however, I always just soak 'em in light machine oil and call it good.... Graphite is the correct stuff to use on the Bendix drive. Sounds like you may have a weak/incorrect spring on the Bendix. There's a shop near where I live that knows how to rebuild and test these old starters, it's a dying art.....

[tomhoo]

Great tips 63 R2 Hawk!

I'm familiar with getting bubbles out of silicon rubber and epoxy mixes using a Bell Jar w/vacuum and this is no different. (In fact, I used that technique to "suck the air" out of a hydraulic clutch system. It worked, but I was afraid that I would "pull" air across the cups since the pressure was on the wrong side.)

I think I can use my MitiVac or simply hook up to my AC vacuum pump (retasked refrigerator compressor). But thinking.... there is an intermediate plate that comes assembled with bushing - that would need a bigger chamber. And I already pressed the nose bushing in. So I'd be dealing with larger than bushing sized assemblies. But I do like the vacuum approach. It does the best job and the quickest.

Can probably find some dry spray graphite but I wonder what a dry spray teflon might do? Might even be better. I know people seem to have found that teflon works the best on tool box drawer sliders (not ball bearing.)

[gordr]

You can get moly spray in a spray can that goes on like flat gray paint, and dries non-sticky. Ideal for the helix on the starter drive. As for the Oilite bushings, just soak them n light machine oil overnight. Look carefully for rub marks on the field pole pieces, or the windings themselves.

[tomhoo]

Just checked some voltages from my trunk mount battery?

Battery +ive to Starter Relay via heavy arc weld cable: 0.4v drop (don't know gauge of cable but the OD is about 5/8")

Battery -ive to Engine Valve Cover Acorn Nut: 0.5v drop

Battery -ive to Motor Mount Frame Bracket: 0.3v drop

Battery -ive to Motor Mount Engine Bracket: 0.5v drop

As I feared, I did not change the light gauge ground strap across the RHS motor mount which results in 0.2v drop. Somewhere I have a heavy wire braded one... This is an easy fix to recover 0.2v but when compared to the 10v at the starter, this is probably not worth the effort. (But I do wonder where the alternate paths are to the block.)

But I'm losing basically 1.0v in my wiring.

And it seems like the frame is actually doing a better job than the arc welding cable.

[Dan Timberlake]

The drop can also be thru the connection. Checking the voltage drop across the cable connection sleeve to the bolt and also to a clean bare section of the frame will make it clear if some connection maintenance is needed.

One time we were troubleshooting a buddie's headlights on his not-that-old 1973 Maverick ( 1973, the sweet spot of the rust and crappy running years ).
My poor multimeter became the strong man in the circuit and the headlights either got brighter or started working.

[tomhoo]

UPDATE: Starter Bushings:

Forgot to mention some are dimpled and I've been finding that many claim that dimpled bushings are NOT Oillite and should be greased.

Will report details when I get the starter disassembled...