Electrical: Lark won't start, just rapid clicking

[jff]

Not long ago I took my 62 Daytona to pick up some lunch. When I came back, turning the key just gave me a couple clicks from under the hood; the engine didn't turn over. I figured my battery had just gone flat, so I got a friend to give me a jump. With his car running and hooked in to my battery, it started up and I got it home.

Since then, it hasn't been able to start. The battery tests OK at Autozone and I'm seeing 13V between the block and the positive post.

Following the path of least resistance, I installed a new solenoid today. Now it just goes "clickclickclickclickclick", I think possibly clicking faster than the old one but the engine is not turning over.

Do you think my starter is buggered? Is there a good way to tell? Should I just pull the starter and take it to a shop, have them assess it?

[Skip Lackie]

Did you check and really clean all the contacts on the battery and starter cables? The clicking was/is your solenoid, which was okay.

[Dick Steinkamp]

In addition to what Skip said, if the car will start fine with a jump, it is probably your battery. Did Autozone load test the battery?

[StudeRich]

You have almost answered your own question, you have eliminated most of the possibilities already.

The next thing to check is the Ignition switch, if you use a 16 Ga. alligator clip wire from the "S" terminal of your new Solenoid and just touch it to the (+) Battery Cable, you will have eliminated the Wire to the Ign. Sw. and the Switch and if they were the problem it will crank with Ign. Sw. ON or Off, but check for Neutral or Park first.

[rstrasser]

You should only hear one click every time you turn the ignition key to start.
Since you replaced the starter solenoid I doubt that it is defective
Where did you connect the jumper cable; to the battery or to the starter side of the solenoid?
Try turning on your head lights while you try starting the car. If they dim there is a good chance that the starter needs rebuilding.
You could try hitting the starter with a mallet while someone is turning the key to start.
Back in the dark ages when I was a teenager and worked in a garage they had a amp meter that you placed on the cable going to the starter and it would read the current draw of the starter. Have not seen one since; then again I am no longer a teenager or working in a garage.
Ron

[jff]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. My connections seem pretty good; the battery contacts are clean, voltage between the block and the battery side of the solenoid is good, and resistance is low enough that I can't measure it on my cheap ohmmeter.

Rich, I shorted the S terminal to the positive terminal as you said and it made the same fast clicking noise. I assume this means the ignition switch circuit is fine?

rstrasser, we jumped it by connecting to my battery. I'll try to do the headlight thing when it gets dark.

Based on the shop manual, it should be really easy to remove the starter motor if necessary. If I take it down to a shop, would they be able to test it to see if a rebuild is necessary? Or is there a compatible, easily-acquired starter out there which I could drop in?

[rstrasser]

jff
Back in the dark ages when there were auto electric shops they would take a starter apart, test the armature for grounds, replace the brushes and bearings or bushings and test run the starter. At one time around here we had 2 good shops; today none. Today all anyone seems to do is call the auto parts store and replace the starter. I had 2 replaced last month; one a 3 year rebuilt old in my Chev diesel and the other an original in my Bronco with 160,000 miles. Each one started the vehicle after hitting with a mallet; then they were replaced..
Ron

[Hawklover]

Great news!
There still are mom-n-pop eletric rebuild shops!
Here is a great one!
AES Auto Electric............Oceanside, Long Island.........over 50 yrs same loacation! These guys saved my behind big time, many many times!
516-678-5366......Ask for Neil or Steve.

[jff]

jff
Back in the dark ages when there were auto electric shops they would take a starter apart, test the armature for grounds, replace the brushes and bearings or bushings and test run the starter. At one time around here we had 2 good shops; today none. Today all anyone seems to do is call the auto parts store and replace the starter. I had 2 replaced last month; one a 3 year rebuilt old in my Chev diesel and the other an original in my Bronco with 160,000 miles. Each one started the vehicle after hitting with a mallet; then they were replaced..
Ron

I'm in the San Francisco area, so I figure there's probably somewhere around here that can rebuild a starter, or I may be able to get one from Studebakers West on the other side of the bay.

Now, I don't know how interchangeable starter motors are; is there a lot of variation? If for instance I could install a starter from an old Ford 170 cu. inch engine, that would be convenient, because this place is just littered with old Mustangs, so parts would be more plentiful. I swear there's one on every street...

[RadioRoy]

Troubleshoot the problem further before jumping to the conclusion that the starter is bad.

If the car starts when being jumped by another vehicle, the problem is not in the starter. It's the same starter, whether it is being jumped, or attempting to start on its own. How could it work while being jumped and not with its own battery?

Something is wrong with the battery, or the battery connections. If the car was jumped across the battery terminals, then the problem is between the battery cable ends and the battery posts, or internal to the battery - no matter what Autozone said.

Can you put the battery in a different car and try starting that car? Can you try a known good battery from another car in your Studebaker?

the Ford starter will not fit in the Studebaker.

[gordr]

That clicking is called a "chatter" and it is telling you that battery voltage to the solenoid is dropping below the hold-in point whenever it engages. Possible causes: bad connection between battery post and battery cable (either one, or both), bad connection between negative cable and ground, bad connection between positive cable and stud on solenoid, bad ground wire between engine block and body (usually found at one of the motor mounts), bad internal connection between battery cells, and finally, short to ground within starter or along the cable from solenoid to starter.

No, a Ford starter won't come close to fitting. Start by removing both battery cables, clean the posts with sandpaper, or a dedicated battery terminal brush, and likewise clean the inside of the clamps. If either cable has white fuzz growing out from beneath the insulation, replace it. They aren't expensive. Find the engine block to body ground wire, and tug on it to make sure it hasn't parted.

Take a jumper cable, connect it to the battery positive post, and with the ignition off, and transmission out of gear, touch the other end to the big post on the starter (easy to reach on a six). If the engine cranks, then maybe you have a bad cable between solenoid and starter, or a bad solenoid. If you get a big fat spark, and the starter doesn't turn, the starter is shorted or stuck solid. Take it out, and have an auto electric shop service it.

Wouldn't hurt to try another known-good battery. That will eliminate the possibility of a bad internal connection in your battery. If you are smelling sulfur or battery acid while trying to start the engine, QUIT RIGHT NOW, and remove the battery, and have it checked at a shop. That's a hallmark of a battery with a bad cell or bad internal connection, and such batteries can explode when a spark inside ignites hydrogen gas. That will make a mess out of your car, and a mess out of you if your face is in the vicinity.

[njonkman]

I'm in the San Francisco area, so I figure there's probably somewhere around here that can rebuild a starter, or I may be able to get one from Studebakers West on the other side of the bay.

Now, I don't know how interchangeable starter motors are; is there a lot of variation? If for instance I could install a starter from an old Ford 170 cu. inch engine, that would be convenient, because this place is just littered with old Mustangs, so parts would be more plentiful. I swear there's one on every street...

No you can't replace the starter with other makes. Double check your battery cable connection on the starter too. Often a problem with Fords in the old days, they would get loose. Never went out on a service call for a ford without a wrench to check that nut and more than 50% would solve the problem right there. The mistake people make with connecting the battery cable to those starters was to put the lock washer under the nut instead of under the cable. Under the cable prevents the cable from twisting the nut loose from the general vibrations and tugs on the cable, under the nut you can twist it loose just by pulling on the cable. I have been rebuilding starters for over 55 years and the most likely problem is that brushes are worn out. The hammer trick sometimes helped to make the brushes get a bit of contact but just for a time or two. Pull the starter off and pull the end off and look at your brushes. I would bet they are worn out and not making contact. I imagine that you have a Delco starter there so brushes are easy to come by. Your manual will show you how to replace them. Not difficult at all. You may have to take some sand paper to the commutator on the armature to clean it up and of course a general clean up in and outside is in order. If the armature is scored real bad you may have to find someone with a lathe. Many of the Stude vendors will have brushes as well as all auto electric shops. Make sure you lube the bushings with some grease on assembly.
The fact that it was clicking and battery is fully charged is indicating the started circuit is open, brushes not contacting the armature. If you had a short in the starter your battery cables would get hot (current draw).
Nick

[Dick Steinkamp]

I don't think you guys are reading the first post. When he jumps the battery, the starter spins and starts the car. It's not the starter.

[1962larksedan]

I don't think you guys are reading the first post. When he jumps the battery, the starter spins and starts the car. It's not the starter.

As you stated. The OP def needs to have that battery checked out: if it's good; the next step would be to make darn sure the terminals are nice and clean. If still not cranking, there may be a bad connection downstream.

Having swapped in a Chevy 350 into my (late) 1962 Lark and jumping the Batt and S terminals together on the GM starter then powering it via the original Stude solenoid; there 'ain't' much to those Old School Stude electric systems.

[jff]

Ok, I guess I'll try to get a different known-good battery in there, then if that doesn't work I'll start debugging the cables more thoroughly.

Thanks!