Dialing in a bellhousing

[tluz]

I'm not sure whether this is a rant or a whine.

I took a rip at dialing in the Avanti bellhousing Saturday. I got the bellhousing from Phil Harris and have to assume he sent me the correct part because we discussed the application extensively. The engine is on the frame and the bellhousing attached with the dowels in. I got a dial test indicator from a motorcycle gearhead friend. I didn't even need to use it, as you will soon see.

I have a generic clutch aligning tool that I inserted in the crankshaft and hoped to use as a mounting for the test indicator. The tool does not screw in, however, and only maintains its position by friction. Already I was foreseeing problems as there was a little play even when I jammed it in and it came loose easily. Even eyeballing it in its strongest position it looked off. Using a tape measure i measured that the clutch tool was sitting an eighth of an inch too low.

I tapped out the dowels, lifted the engine with wood blocks under the exhaust manifolds and tried to tap the bellhousing down. Upon re-measuring, I learned that it had gotten farther off. Now it was 3/16 too low.

But how can that be? The screws couldn't go into the screw holes if the parts were that far off. I wonder if the clutch isn't on right, thereby pushing the aligning tool off center, but that still presents the same conundrum -- how could the screw holes in the clutch match up if it's that far off?

Left to my own devices i would jack up the engine under the manifolds, remove the bellhousing, clutch and flywheel, and try to figure out some way to mount the dial test indicator in the crankshaft bolts, like the example on Bob Johnstone's web site. I would struggle with it for a day or two, then invite some friends over to help. They would have no idea what to do because there are only four people in the world who can actually do this and they don't live within four states of here. I would then throw the thing away and get a Ford 302, having had a flash of understanding of the beauty of brand X equipment -- you don't have to be a tool and die expert to put the friggin' thing together.

By the way, I am not attaching a stude transmission. It's going to be a t-5 out of a mustang. Somebody please make my day and tell me this means I don't have to worry about this little dial-in game.

Any thoughts you may have are appreciated.

Tom

[studebaker-R2-4-me]

What Mike is telling you is that your asking for trouble. Why would you go to all this work and then not dial in a Bell housing? So you can learn the hard way? Do you want clutch chatter problems, worn bearings, and a transmission rebuild to save an hour by not dialing it in? Why?

Allen


1964 R2 GT Hawk

1963 Daytona Convertible
Oakville, Ontario.
Hamilton Chapter

[satdoc2]

What part of the bellhousing does the dial indicator touch? What is the inside lip?
Allen

[StudeRich]

quote:Originally posted by satdoc2

What part of the bellhousing does the dial indicator touch? What is the inside lip?Allen

The machined hole for the Front pump on Automatics or the Bearing cone on Standard Trans. in the Center of the Bell Housing.

That would be the only part of the Bell Housing that you could dial-in to the Crankshaft centerline, because it is machined true and center. [:0]

StudeRich

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by studebaker-R2-4-me

Why would you go to all this work and then not dial in a Bell housing? So you can learn the hard way? Do you want clutch chatter problems, worn bearings, and a transmission rebuild to save an hour by not dialing it in? Why?

Obviously Tom does NOT want these problems. He's just expressing the frustration of those of us who are experienced in the Big 3 world who have never had to do this procedure on anything else. I have always been a car guy, built, drove, and worked on literally hundreds of muscle cars, hot rods, and race cars, including $50K BB Chevies that will turn 7-8K RPMS for hundreds of laps- and have never done this procedure before, and know of no one that has. Since learning about it I have asked lots of racing guys about it and their usual response is to frown and say some version of "trash that cobjob and put some kind of quality engine in it"[B)] Not very conducive to making Studebaker converts[xx(] I have yet to try it myself; I'm not looking forward to trying to keep a hand drill straight and a bit sharpened drilling into cast iron Some day I'll have to, and I'm not looking forward to it; I don't do well with written instructions. If somebody showed me in person one time I'd have it down, but no one I know that has done this lives within a couple hundred miles of me So I've been dodging the issues thus far... Hey, maybe somebody could do a demonstration at York or one of the other Meets...?

I am a Stude lover, to the point that I have no interest in 65 or 66 models solely because of the Chevy engines- even though they're excellent engines and I know them inside and out. I want to learn more about my chosen favrite collector brand, and will accept the achy breaky axles, flimsy frames- and the lame-quality bellhousing design happily as another adorable 'quirk'... but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating[V]

Good luck Tom; hope you get it figured out soon...

Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Kurt]

The first time I ever heard about this I couldn't believe it either. I have worked on tractors, trucks, other makes of cars, and had never heard of this. However, two years ago, when I was setting up my engine and bellhousing combo, I found that it really was not too bad. The key is to have a helper. I was as frustrated as you when I started. A friend stopped by my shop and he helped me. One turning the engine, one watching the indicator and bumping aroung the housing. Pretty soon we had it. In two years of driving nothing has broken yet.

66 Commander R1 Clone
51 Commander 4dr

[Transtar60]

How did people get the idea that dialing in the bellhousing only applies to Studebaker's??

http://www.circletrack.com/drivetraintech/ctrp_0404_bellhousing_alignment/index.html

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328096&page=3

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/additionaltech_perfdir/other/sucp_0108_chevy_bellhousing/index.html

http://www.camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml

Good mechanical practices have no brand name.




3E38
4E2
4E28
5E13
7E7
8E7
8E12
8E28

59 Lark
etc

[studebaker-R2-4-me]

Sorry Bob that is not what Tom is saying at all.

quote: I didn't even need to use it, as you will soon see.

He is saying the bellhousing fits perfectly by putting in the dowels and bolting up the bellhousing. All Studebaker bellhousings bolt up that way just like a chevy. The big question is whether either Stude or Chevy bellhousing CENTRED? How do you do this with a tape measure? The manual recommends no more that 4 thousandths out around the centre. 4 thousandths of an inch is like a super light bump on the side of the bellhousing with a big hammer.

If a "dummy" like me can do it for the first time without the aid of picture diagram, as in the "How to dial in a Bellhousing" post, I am sure someone with years of experience racing and wrenching on muscle cars can do it with ease.

As for the alignment "T" tool for the dial indicator it is a simply two pieces of angle iron welded perpendicular to each other. It does not have to be perfectly square, because once it is mounted to the crank and the dial indicator attached it measures the same distance from crank centre to the interior lip of the bellhousing.

Tom just follow this procedure documented in the How to post and it should not take you more than an hour. One thing you should note is to find an extra long drill bit undersized from your new dowel pins. This will aid you when you have to drill the engine block.

Best of luck

Allen




1964 R2 GT Hawk

1963 Daytona Convertible
Oakville, Ontario.
Hamilton Chapter

[Neal in NM]

When you say turn the engine over I hope you mean by hand [}]. I have seen a few apprentices launch expensive test indicators out of a milling machine when they thought it was in neutral. Also may want to add, Remove spark plugs to ease the rotation by hand. Neal

quote:Originally posted by hotwheels63r2


Now have a buddy rotate the engine again and you follow the dial and see that it is reading smoothly.


turn the engine over some more. notice each time you get closer, you need to re-torque the bolts.

MIKE

[gordr]

And can I reiterate that the time to be doing this (you KNOW you're going to have to do it) is when you have the crank sitting in your new block, and main bearings torqued up, and NO pistons installed. The crank turns SO easy then. Just get a helper, whip the block off the engine stand, spend a half hour doing the dial indicating on the bench, in a nice warm shop, then pop the block back on the engine stand, and carry on. Sure beats doing it on your back, under the car!

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[tluz]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I have a friend who likes this stuff and is, as we used to say growing up in Boston, "wicked smaht." We'll take another crack at it this weekend.

[bams50]

quote:Originally posted by Transtar60

How did people get the idea that dialing in the bellhousing only applies to Studebaker's??

I'll answer that.

My father was what today would be called a 'master mechanic'. He taught at tech schools, and eventually left to run the Post Office fleet in Syracuse NY, 100+ vehicles. Later he opened his own service station. I grew up in the garage where I worked side by side with him, both on customer cars and the cars he had for sale. For years he also built and crew-chiefed several championship race cars. Later I worked on and then drove race cars for 35 years and counting, 24 as a driver. I've known hundreds of racers on many levels and many types of racing.

To this day I have NEVER heard of, or seen this done- or needed- on any others, Ford, GM, or MoPar, big or small block, auto or manual, stock road cars or the highest-dollar, highest-HP, or anywhere in between, engines- ever. Rarely have I ever seen a trans., clutch, or flex plate failure, and of those few, nothing I could attribute to misalignment.

That's not to say it shouldn't be done; just that in all that experience I've never done it, or seen it done; nor can I find any non-Stude guy that ever has. Just lucky, maybe?

I'll definitely be sure to figure this out when I need to with a Stude. As for any others, the procedure will remain the same: assure mating surfaces and factory dowel pins are clean, and assemble. It's got me 48 years; I'll roll the dice that it'll continue



Robert (Bob) Andrews- on the IoMT (Island of Misfit Toys)
Parish, central NY 13131

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Dwain G.]

I've long since sold it, but used to have a mid-'50s Ford shop manual that addressed bell housing alignment. It also gave instructions on indicating the transmission mounting face of the bellhousing, and recommended using shim stock between the engine block and bellhousing to correct any run-out found there.
I'm sure if Stude had been building cars into the '70s, their machining procedures would have evolved just as everyone elses did.

[Skinnys Garage]

quote:Originally posted by bams50

To this day I have NEVER heard of, or seen this done- or needed- on any others, Ford, GM, or MoPar......That's not to say it shouldn't be done; just that in all that experience I've never done it, or seen it done; nor can I find any non-Stude guy that ever has. Just lucky, maybe?

If you purchase a new bell housing from Lakewood or others, the instruction sheet gives clear instructions on how to dial in the new bell. Lakewood, Moroso and others sell offset dowels for just such a purpose. I remember helping my friend dial in his bell on his Maverick drag car and another friend with his El Camino street-strip car over 20 years ago, so this is nothing new to me. I'm not saying I've ever done it on any of my Brand X's, but it is done.

An internet search shows many non-Stude discussions related to the subject, stock, aftermarket, GM, Ford etc. It's probably more of a concern to the drag racers leaving at high rpm's and making violent shifts, both stick and automatic. I'm betting road racers do it also for clean shifts. Not all racing is done in one gear going around in a circle.


Skinny
Watertown, SD

[Skinnys Garage]

After doing some more reading on the subject, I've noticed a common theme. While I've read here a few times about Studebakers poor machining being the reason for having to dial in the bell, I believe it's actually the opposite. It's the mass produced big three that have the loose machining that are a bit more forgiving.

Most articles were about racing bells or high end exotics using the dail-in process for a perfect alignment. There are stories about using a fixture to dial in non removable bells, fixed transaxles etc. Other articles go into engine core shift, line boring, repaired bells etc. for reasons to check them.

Even my little jab about circle track cars not needing to do it because they don't shift isn't entirely accurate. I found articles that give the benefits to even the slowest of hobby stocks. The free horsepower from less friction on the pilot or front pump can give an edge in any class.[8D]




Skinny
Watertown, SD