Chevy S10/Olds Cutlass frame under a Stude sedan?

[1962larksedan]

Has anybody done either a GM S10 or G Body (Monte Carlo, Cutlass, etc.) stub frame under a 1960's Lark sedan? Why I wonder the older I get; the more that modern PS appeals to me and the Achilles Heel of Stude cars is that goofy multilink steering setup. Plus front end parts are very easy/cheap to get.

After reading another member's post about bolting up an S10 diff to the stock rear springs; since the rear bolt pattern will become 5 on 4 3/4".........I would want the front to match.

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Borrowed Bams50's sigline here:

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[Swifster]

I'd get a Ford 8.8" and the rear will match the front and you'll have a better rear end to boot.

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Tom - Mulberry, FL

1964 Studebaker Daytona - 289 4V, 4-Speed (Cost To Date: $2161.27)

1964 Studebaker Commander 170-1V, 3-speed w/OD (Cost to Date: $623.67)

[62SY4]

Like the saying goes, 'Anything can be done with time and money'. If you are looking for power steering, Why not just use Studebaker parts? The parts are readily available used, even if you had to pay to have everyting rebuilt, it would be far cheaper than grafting a clip of any make on your frame. Or are you looking for that 'feel' you get from late model power steering? Remember Corvette used a very similar power steering setup (control valve & slave cylinder) until'82.

Jon Krimm
1962 Lark Sedan

1961 Champ

[ChampTrucking]

Hey ,the G body frame swap is not good based on one I bought. I bought a 65 parts car,advertised as a 64,with a 63 VIN and title! Some guy set it on a rear wheel drive 83 Cutlass frame. The wheel base was right,but the frame mounts were not thought out at all.On the bottom of the Stude firewall where the outriggers are for frame attachment,this dude used 3/4 inch black iron pipe about 3 or 4 inches long (spacers)and a 5 inch long 3/8ths inch bolt as a body mount,into holes blown into the Cutlass frame with a torch. The rear set down decently on the frame,but the tops of the front fenders were hip high on a 6 foot person.It looked like it was pulling a wheelie,but the wheels were on the ground. It might be a good swap IF you can figure out the interference issues at the cowl area. It has been about 5 years since I had this car,but I do remember it could have,and should have been done differently.

[1962larksedan]

Thanks for the all the replies.

Why I wonder about the feasibility is apparently 1986+ Avanti's indeed used a GM RWD midsized frame to replace the modified Lark units.

Back to a 'real' Stude: I too am leery of using a complete late GM frame......perhaps grafting on a G body/2WD S10 front stub onto the Stude frame rails or am I asking for serious trouble i.e. firewall clearance issues, etc.?

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Borrowed Bams50's sigline here:

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[buddymander]

Why not cut the aframe ends off the S10 and weld them to the stude ends? Retain the center steer and change the box to one that steers to the side and hook a link from it to a bracket on the bellcrank; next to the tie rod ends? The toughest fixes on the stude front end aren't in the bellcrank and its corresponding linkage, but in the trunnions and kingpins. It would be cool to be able to get rid of the trunnions, kingpins, long slow steering arms, and drum brakes all in one fell swoop. I ordered a Longacre alignment gauge and I can't wait for it to get here so I can go cut up this 57 SH frame I have to install something like this myself. Then I'll transplant it to my daily driver. I think I'll go pick up some threaded rod to clamp the front coils to duplicate normal ride height while trying to figure out what spindles to try. Maybe Ford ranger so the bolt pattern will match the back.

[1962larksedan]

quote:Originally posted by buddymander

Why not cut the aframe ends off the S10 and weld them to the stude ends? Retain the center steer and change the box to one that steers to the side and hook a link from it to a bracket on the bellcrank; next to the tie rod ends? The toughest fixes on the stude front end aren't in the bellcrank and its corresponding linkage, but in the trunnions and kingpins. It would be cool to be able to get rid of the trunnions, kingpins, long slow steering arms, and drum brakes all in one fell swoop. I ordered a Longacre alignment gauge and I can't wait for it to get here so I can go cut up this 57 SH frame I have to install something like this myself. Then I'll transplant it to my daily driver. I think I'll go pick up some threaded rod to clamp the front coils to duplicate normal ride height while trying to figure out what spindles to try. Maybe Ford ranger so the bolt pattern will match the back.

Remember that S10's and friends use front steering: read that the idler/Pitman arms and linkage all mount forward of the front axle centerline hence my wanting to use the whole shootin' match from just behind the front engine mounts forward. Adapt mtg points for the radiator support, bumper, etc. so the car looks 'stock' once it is dressed up.

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Borrowed Bams50's sigline here:

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[Flashback]

If you just want to have the same wheel bolt pattern,
just drill the front or rear. There are disc brake kits
with either pattern.

Tex E. Grier

[buddymander]

True, you could redrill the pattern. Well, a lot of cars even have different wheels for every corner, anymore. You could carry a unilug spare. And true, the S10 stuff wouldn't work with my idea because you must use the same rear steer setup in order to maintain correct ackerman. With so many going to front steer, it might be difficult to find one with rear steer. I don't want to hijack your thread with my own agenda, I just feel that this method would be easier if it could be worked out.

[Jessie J.]

All Studebaker passenger car frame rails, from the late '40s on, were formed from relatively light gauge sheet metal bent into a 'hat section' and enclosed with a spot welded bottom plate.
Light weight was the goal, with a large percentage of of the structural rigidity being contributed by the body tub, and Studebaker's became quite notorious for having 'limp noodle' frames.
All of which is to say, that while other make front clips can, and have been 'grafted' onto whacked off Stude rails, the result is usually a crude mis-match of entirely different types of construction, and underlying design philosophies.

Perhaps the most successful front clip conversion was the Volare/Aspen/Fifth Avenue unitized suspension which could be relatively easily installed under uncut stock Studebaker frame rails.
Other frames can be adapted with varying amounts of labor and success, but unless the end result has significantly more rigidity than the original design it will hardly be worth the effort.
Personally, I consider such grafted front frame clips -on Studebaker's- to be crude, ill advised, and very undesirable.
Better improve an unmolested stock frame, or otherwise go all the way and graft that desired doner clip to new matching strong box section rails, so entirely replacing the Stude's limp sheet-metal chassis structure.

[Jessie J.]

Along this line, I would advise anyone serious about installing a GM clip to obtain a copy of Tex Smiths "HOW TO BUILD CUSTOM CARS"
which on pages 18-22 covers exactly what I above described and on page 24 gives an example of a Volare/Studebaker swap

[1962larksedan]

Jessie J: you just gave me the best reason to not graft an S10 (or any other front clip) onto an otherwise stock Stude frame. I did not realize they were that frail compared to; say, a 1955 Chevy Belair frame.

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Borrowed Bams50's sigline here:

"Do they all not, by mere virtue of having survived as relics of a bygone era, amass a level of respect perhaps not accorded to them when they were new?"

[gordr]

It's not so much that Studebaker frames are frail; it's that they are flexible by design, and make use of the car's body to stiffen the overall structure. If you graft a Brand X clip to Stude frame rails, you can create a stress discontinuity, which can be a likely failure point.

Here is a book that I highly recommend. It's easy and entertaining to read, but it will give a whole new insight into why things are built the way they are: http://www.amazon.com/Structures-Thi...8987545&sr=1-1

The full title of the book is Structures: Why Things Don't Fall Down (and why, sometimes, they do)

Anyone who considers himself to be a gearhead should have this one on the bookshelf.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

[buddymander]

Chevies up thru 54 also used a thin flexible frame. I stubbed one with a camaro and overlapped the two frames for about a foot. I wouldn't have done it but the po had grafted on a monte carlo stub and it was crooked all three ways. You should check out every aspect of your front suspension and find out where the actual problems really are located. You might get around power steering if you don't run a deep reversed wheel and make sure your front tires have plenty of air.

[Jessie J.]

1962larksedan, I own a 1962 lark 2dr sedan, and was also considering this type of conversion back in the early '90s, even bought an S-10 and stripped it down to the bare chassis, did a lot of measuring and researching, and ultimately decided against it, and to this day I'm glad that I did.
I wanted a Studebaker and it is the fact that it is still really a Studebaker, that makes owning it so cool!

There is no end to the 'improvements' that one can make to an older vehicle. With enough money and time it could have 'Vette suspension, Viper power, a Lexus dash, a paddle shifter, and infinitely adjustable heated Lincoln leather seats...but it would no longer be any more than an 'outline' of something that was shaped somewhat similar to a classic old Studebaker.
Bleah! I'm not interested in any such vehicle, and wouldn't even care to own any such a creation.
I love my Studebaker for its Studebaker qualities and peculiarities, otherwise I'd just get rid of it for some bland and anonymous modern vehicle that could do just about every thing better than an original old Studebaker.