Mercury / Nissan Tandem Master Cylinder

[JoeHall]

I now have a Mistu MC on hand, part no. 390282. It is about 5/16" shorter than the Villager MC, and has a 1" piston as does the Villager and AMC MC, but it only has 1" of stroke, compared to 1.25" in both the Villager and AMC. The reduced hydraulic capacity may work for folks here with OEM Stude DBs, or with Jim Turner's kit. But of our three Hawks, only the wife's 63GT has Turner DBs, the other two have larger 12" rotors with larger calipers. The larger calipers require more hydraulic capacity, so I am gonna go with the Villager MC. It is 3/4" shorter than the AMC MC, which was butted up against the frame outrigger. The AMC's height was borderline too high, as the cap's retainer wire lightly touches the floorboard on 2 of our 3 Studes.

If (when) the wife's 63GT needs a new MC, I may try the Mitsu in it. But the other two Studes will get the Villager MC.

[JoeHall]

Junior you are my hero, I wanna do just what you did, except plan to only have about 3" of the 1/2" reservoir line coming from the MC before stepping it down to 3/8", which matches the remote reservoir I have, for VW Beetles. Do you have and pics of the way you set up the remote reservoir?

Thanks,
Joe H

[junior]

I can't take credit for this...Jerry Forester gave me the idea. Actually you're my hero, as I know you sweat the details far more than I do. I'm out of town right now so don't have access to my hard drive with my ancient photos. When I'm back home I'll dig up what I have. Really wondering if I even plumbed the the Nissan m/c properly after your comments. I am planning on trying the Mitsu m/c to increase the line pressure but am concerned about lack of stroke too. I've never been really satisfied with how the car stops...even though it will lock up the front brakes it takes way too much leg for my comfort. I'll get back in a few days. cheers, Junior

[JoeHall]

I am gonna set up the reservoir first, then swap the MC in. I never thought it would be so difficult to find 3/8" ID brake hose, to run from the reservoir to the MC, and it's been a learning curve. I only need about 1 foot, since I am only gonna use it to connect copper line in between (as Bensherb suggested). All total, I need about 60" for each line, so 120" (10 feet) total, and about 9' of that will be 3/8" copper line. Will either use Targon with 1/8" walls, or EDPM 375 with 1/8" walls, as connectors for the copper lines. I plan to mount the (VW Beetle repro) reservoir on the little ledge on the fender apron, adjacent to the forward end of the battery. Nice and easy to access, unlike the factory reservoir on 63-64 GTs that came with DBs, which has always been a PITA to top off without spilling on the wife's 63GT.

UPDATE: I just now ordered 10' of the EPDM from McMaster-Carr, total with tax and shipping was only $38. Almost too good to be true, considering what it costs elsewhere, if you can even find it in 3/8" ID.
I chose EPDM due to its temperature rating of -40 to 300F, versus -100 to 130F for Targon, which likely woulda been a disaster under the hood in summer time.

[junior]

Joe, keep us posted with results of your m/c swap! Very interested. cheers, Junior

[junior]

Back to the Mitsu m/c...Wagner 114603, Mitsubishi Mirage 1.6L turbo. 7/8 bore. Rationalization for this is with the Nissan Quest 1" bore m/c and my brake pedal ratio of 6.5/1 I'm generating about 820psi with 100lbs of leg force. (according to a chart from Wilwood). According to Mark Willams Enterprises, I should be shooting for about 1200psi of force. With a 7/8 bore m/c I'll be generating 1083 psi, and with a 13/16 bore m/c I'll be generating 1250 psi. I'm concerned that the pedal stroke is going to be too long with both smaller bore m/c but am willing to try the 7/8 bore. Who knows...not me. Not a scientist here, just a hack. Perhaps I'll have to cut a hole in the firewall to let the brake pedal travel far enough...lol
Thoughts? Cheers, Junior

[junior]

About the Nissan m/c plumbing with which port to hook up to the front brakes...which port are you going to use Joe? I took a quick look at RockAuto and it appears the 1993 Quest only had drum rear brakes. My notes from waay back to 2007 when I installed the m/c do not indicate why I choose the port closest to the mounting flange to hook up the front disc brakes to.
About the m/c reservoir Joe, I used the stock Quest one mounted to a custom bracket that mounts where the stock battery would have been located, so I'm assuming that not suitable for your needs. My car is modified with a SBC and T5 transmission with a S-series Blazer rear axle with drum brakes.

Cheers, Junior

[JoeHall]

Hi Junior,
I agree, AFAIK all 1993-2002 Quests/Villagers had front discs and rear drums, so it DOES matter how they're plumbed in our DB equipped Studes. The port near the rounded end goes to the front DBs, and the port near the mount face goes to the drums. In plumbing that way in our Studes, (AFAIK) there's no need to remove the PRVs and substitute in-line Wilwood's, as that MC already has the correct PRVs inside. Also, inside the MC, the piston ports for DBs & drums are always located to provide more "juice" to the DBs. This makes sense, since DBs require more hydraulic capacity. Then too, is sequencing of fluid flow to front and rear. I trust the factory engineers got it right for the vehicles the MCs were designed for, and the theory should also apply to our Studes with front DBs. None of this applies to the 1960s - 70s AMC master cylinder most of us have used with the Turner tandem MC mod, since ALL of the AMCs that MC fits have front and rear drums. Some AMCs and Jeeps of that era had front DBs, but they used a totally different MC, with a large DB reservoir and small drum reservoir; those MCs are too large for Studes with under floor MCs, but should work OK in Studes with firewall mounted MCs. If so, the port from the large reservoir goes to the front DBs.

You may already know this but, if you are wanting to keep pedal height but reduce required pedal pressure, with your current setup, I suggest EBC "Green Stuff" brake pads. You will not believe how much easier and smoother the car stops. They also do not fade under any conditions, if anything they grip harder as they heat up, i.e. coming to a quick stop from road speeds. Only drawback is they create a lotta brake dust but, the good news, it is easy to remove, including from tire whitewalls, which I just cleaned this morning on the wife's 63GT.

Your reservoir installation looks nice and clean, I am guessing you put the battery in the trunk? Will post results here once the Villager MC is in place.

[junior]

Thanks for your thoughts and info Joe. I'm going to switch my lines around on the m/c and see what the result is. Then I'll get some of those pads and try them out too. Can't wait for you to report back on the results on your swap. Hope it all works out. Oh yes, the battery is mounted in the trunk of my car. cheers Junior

[bensherb]

If you're not adverse to modifications, the easy way to do all this is to move the battery to the passenger side fender and install a modified Lark swing pedal allowing you to install the master on the firewall and include a power booster if wanted. This is what I did on our C/K's. I did reinforce the firewall with a steel plate to keep it from "oil canning" when in use.

This is my GT: These pics show a 1" Corvette master cylinder. It works great with the drums but is not sufficient for my all wheel discs. I just got a 1 1/8" version to replace it, and i'll re-install the discs.

[junior]

Nice and clean, and a whole lot easier to work on the m/c when it's on the firewall and room for a booster too. I'm going to stick with the factory floor mount pedals because I love the look. I remember when I was a kid watching my Dad drive the car and loving how the pedals magically popped up out of the floor...thought it was so cool. cheers, Junior

[64V-K7]

[QUOTE=junior;n2068623]About the Nissan m/c plumbing with which port to hook up to the front brakes...which port are you going to use Joe? I took a quick look at RockAuto and it appears the 1993 Quest only had drum rear brakes. My notes from waay back to 2007 when I installed the m/c do not indicate why I choose the port closest to the mounting flange to hook up the front disc brakes to.
About the m/c reservoir Joe, I used the stock Quest one mounted to a custom bracket that mounts where the stock battery would have been located, so I'm assuming that not suitable for your needs. My car is modified with a SBC and T5 transmission with a S-series Blazer rear axle with drum brakes.

Cheers, Junior

//////In a disk/drum setup, you plumb the port with the longest stroke to the disks, whether it's on the front or the rear of the MC./////

[JoeHall]

Agree, relocating the battery and mounting the MC on the fire wall is the ultimate solution, and I’d be ok with that for the GTs, but not the 56J. But, at this point it’s easier to stay with under floor for all 3 of my Hawks. Also agree on plumbing the front DBs to the longest stroke port. With some MCs it’s easy to determine which port is which, but with some others, need to figure a way to figure it out which is which. For example first determine what vehicle it’s originally designed for, then insure that vehicle had front DBs and rear drums, then look for pics of that vehicle’s plumbing on line. That’s how I figured out the Villager / Quest MC.

[JoeHall]

Today I bench bled the Villager MC and, for sure it matters which port goes to front and rear. To bench bleed, I rigged two of the 2 ounce plastic syringes as tandem reservoirs, and filled each to 1.5 oz. When I began pushing the piston in, the port toward the round end of the MC was the only one pushing bubbles; only after it finished bubbling, did the port near the mount face began to push bubbles. Of course when that port's bubbling stopped the piston was firm, as it should be. Also, I noticed the syringe, that fed the port toward the round end, used a bit more fluid. Since that port activated and bled first, and required more fluid, I firmly believe it should be plumbed to the front DBs.

I looked all over the internet on how to bleed a MC that has a remote reservoir, and was surprised there wasn't anything that made any sense to me. So I got creative, as shown in the below port's pic.

The Mercury Villager, with MC mounted on the firewall, the port on the rounded end faces the front of the vehicle. But when mounted underfloor on a Stude, it is inverted, and that port faces the rear, which could be confusing, but correct port plumbing is important. IMHO

[junior]

Thanks for the update Joe. Let us know how this m/c works for you once installed.

[JoeHall]

Here’s how I set it up to bench bleed. I don’t wanna disturb the MC since it’s plugged off and ready to mount. But this mockup tells the story.

[junior]

I bled my m/c by looping pvc hose from stubby brake lines on the master back up to the remote res. cheers Junior

[JoeHall]

Yesterday I finished the install, and bled the system by myself, but gonna need a helper for the right rear wheel. The brakes definitely "come on" in better sequence now (front then rear), even without yet dialing down the rears' adjustable fluid restrictor that Jim Turner provided in all his tandem MC kits; I wonder how many know, of the 3-4 turns on the knob, only the last 1 turn makes ANY difference in restriction, and even when completely closed it is not closed, only restricts flow by about 20 percent. My guess, about 90 percent of the folks out there are not getting any use whatsoever from that valve.

I am very happy with the (VW Beetle) remote fluid reservoir, which holds about 1 pint, and is actually 2 reservoirs, split by a partition inside that spills over (levels out) about 1/2" from the briml. It fit nicely on the fender apron's little ledge, just forward of the battery, but the copper lines were a PITA to route, so I may just use hose next time. It is sooo nice to not have to check and top off the MC fluid level after every 3-4 times' cracking the bleeder - on each wheel. The wife's 63GT has the factory remote reservoir, so dosen't have that problem, but the 62GT and 56J only had the MC mounted reservoir (in the AMC MC). I never drilled the suggested MC access holes in the floorboard of either car, so always checked / topped off fluid from underneath (using a 2-ounce syringe with attached u'shaped copper line). It was just as easy that way, but either way was a PITA.

As for MC hydraulic capacity, I need every drop the 1" bore / 1.25" stroked piston produces, and the 1" bore / 1" stroke Mitsubishi MC would likely be insufficient for my system, which has the larger calipers and 12" rotors. The wife's GT has the Turner (smaller) calipers and rotors, but I believe the Mitsu MC capacity would be marginal in it. Also, the Villager / Quest MC mounting flange is much beefier than the Mitsu; both are aluminum, and both were originally only used on vehicles with factory PB (less required pedal pressure = less strain on the MC mount flange) so, if installed in a non PB equipped Stude, the beefier Villager mount is MUCH more desired. I may try the Mitsu MC in the wife's GT someday, but probably not, since I prefer extra hydraulic capacity v. marginal, and don't trust the Mistu's thinner mount face .

[Jerry Forrester]

I am looking for an easier swap, next time one of our Hawk's, Turner tandem MC craps out. The AMC version MC, most of us use, and per Turner's recommendation, is difficult to remove / install, to say the least. Due to its length and height, it requires extra finessing and just the right combo of curse words to remove / install. With the AMC's 1" bore and 1.25" stroke, the internals are fairly common with many other MCs, but smaller external dimensions, with those internals, are hard to find. The MC used in 1993-2002 Mercury Villager / Nissan Quest looks promising. WIth a 1" bore and 1.25" stroke, the internals will work, and the 3/4" shorter length and 1" shorter height may save a ton of blood, sweat and tears during a swap in/out. It is designed to use a remote fluid reservoir, and comes with 1/2" ID, plastic nipples on top, which are plumbed to the reservoir which also has 1/2" nipples. A challenge is, rubber brake line with 1/2" ID, has 3/4" OD, which would be cumbersome to route from the MC to the firewall (think 5/8" ID heater hose). Maybe a reducer fitting near the MC, to go from 1/2" ID to 1/4" ID, then to an aftermarket remote reservoir would do the trick.

I understand the same MC is popular with Street Rodders, or at least was till Wilwood and some other aftermarkets came out with other, similar options. Another candidate is a Mitsubishi MC, but all I've found have an MC mounted reservoir; adapting that to a remote reservoir seems problematic, at least to me. I know, our recently deceased fellow SDC member (Joe Bacon, R.I.P.) mounted a Mitsubishi MC on his 64GT Hawk, just wish I'd looked at it closer and asked him more questions on how he did it.

Has anyone else installed any MC, with smaller external dimensions than the AMC version, in a C/K Stude? If so, can you provide some details?
Thanks,
Joe H

I've installed the Mercury Villager Master cylinder a few times with the resivoir on the firewall. Now if I can figure out how to post pictures, I will.