Brakes: 1963 Avanti Upgrade to front Disk Brakes

[Alan911]

All,

As a practicing design engineer, I fully understand the details for a complete and working system, so I purchase thoroughly tested kits, from quality providers, for my old cars, 23+.

Today, I roughed in the Turner brake upgrade kit for my 1963 Studebaker, Avanti, 63R3454, I have the following comments:

1. Machined brackets for the caliper install, very good quality work.
2. The grease seal sleeve, was much easier to install than expected. I did heat to red, dull, hot and the sleeve slipped on to the spindle, quite easily. Others have identified this step as more difficult.
3. The spindle washer fit. A new spindle washer should be included in the kit, nominal 3/8” wide. This is required to have the Castle nut position correct for the Cotter Key to fit snugly in the Castle Nut grooves.
4. On the drivers side the original bearing retainer washer, on the spindle, left 0.10” of spindle showing, an no way to tighten the spindle bearing. I had to go into my parts stash, and find a spindle washer from my 1965, Oldsmobile 442, to get proper lash for the spindle bearing. (As this item has been identified, by others, I would have expected a solution in your “kit”.
5. The brake hose, provided, is designed to be installed in an indexed cage clamp with retaining clip, on the frame mount end. The existing brake hose retaining mount is designed for a round hose fitting secured by the spring horseshoe clip. Obviously the brake hose cannot be secured in the mounting slip, as the two mount styles are incompatible.
6. Looking at full steering lock travel for the caliper, I am concerned about the caliper brake hose striking the upper A arm. I will review this issue further, but a different attachment style for the hose to the caliper would eliminate this issue. I will evaluate the full travel clearance at full lock steering. But, on initial look I am not comfortable the caliper hose has the correct end to clear suspension travel.
7. Given the extensive U tube, world we live in, I would have expected your team to do a simple install video.
8. I read over your instructions, several times. It is clear you want to provide DIY people with options to use your caliper mounts. I would suggest you limit your work to full kits, as the iterations, and undesired outcomes from mismatched components, put you in a precarious position, legally, when others use your components, with self-help solutions.
9. It would be a nice addition to provide a dust shield, for the inner side of the caliper, as used on all factory cars.

I purchased your kit, with the optional vented rotors, from Bob Ziff. So I would have a complete kit, no design time, needed for the install. The attention to detail is less than I expected, for simple things like the spindle washer spacing, and the hose bracket mis match. As a engineer, this week of drama with the Titan, revisits how our profession must strive for excellence, as close solutions, are scattered at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.

Thank you,
Alan

[BRUCESTUDE]

I’ve installed both Turner and Hot Rods systems, with the unstated expectation that aftermarket kits may need some “ tweaking”. A basic knowledge of auto mechanics and mechanical aptitude of course helps, and the end result was an amazing upgrade available for little outlay!

[StudeRich]

WOW! that is quite the detailed review !
It IS amazing that I and many others have been installing and loving Jim's Front Disc. Kits for, something like 50 Years with No real issues and few complaints for 50 years, maybe because we just figure out any minor issues.

For instance My Son and I cut the original Dirt and Grease Shields for the inboard side of the Rotors to fit the Turner kit with the GM Chevelle Calipers and '70 Mustang Rotors and it has worked well.

I guess if Jim HAD a "Crew" he could over Engineer it, but his business started out as a Part Time Business and still is a One Man operation.

[jetboat]

I have done 2 turner kits, the only problem was of my own making.

[Hawklover]

A bit arrogant I would say, "Alan" should have sat down and expressed his displeasure in a letter to JimTurner, regurgitating his displeasure to parties that have no skin in the game to me lacks a bit a common decorum. I would love to read Mr. Turners response to this.

[Topper2011]

I have installed Jim's front disc brake kit on my 62 GT and glad I did it. Yes, it did take a bit of tweaking, but nothing between talking to Jim and myself could not figure out. I too was bit concerned with the brake hose interfering with the frame on full lock to lock. A call to Jim explaining my situation and asked him to change the end to a 45 degree angle IIRC, fixed it. He was also happy to do if for me. My kit is running S10 calipers and the Maverick/Mustang rotors. I also had to use the "cage" type cotter pin stop on top of the castle nut to get the proper thickness so the cotter pin could engage it. Everything else worked very well and it is a beefy kit. Brakes work quite well.

[Topper2011]

Forgot my point between this and watching Tour De France. The point is just pick up the phone and call Jim and express your situation, he's more than willing to help.

[Henry]

I've used Jim Turner's upgraded system in at least six cars and a Champ truck. My Avanti has 4-wheel disc braking from Jim.
IMHO, he is a brake god! :-) Like Jetboat, any screw-ups were mine, but I agree that a U-toob video would be helpful, especially for first-timers.

[Dick Steinkamp]

I would think a practicing design engineer, that fully understands the details for a complete and working system, and purchases thoroughly tested kits, from quality providers would not have such a horrendously bad experience. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

[daytonadave]

I met Jim Tuner at the 2013 National Meet in Colorado Springs. He is a great Guy and always has time for questions .

[Alan911]

There were no disparaging comments made. I sent Jim an email, as included above, 3 weeks before I posted the list above. No response. I posted the Email to get answers, for my questions. I am sure Jim is a great guy, and developed a solution needed.

Topper2011, can you tell me the part number of the brake lines?

Yes the brakes work well.

[Topper2011]

Sorry Alan, no part number was given. I called him and explain what was happening and a different angle would give it the clearance I needed.

[Buzzard]

I have no doubt that Jim's system works very well, especially when replacing a drum equipped vehicle (not Avantis). However, being the owner of two factory disc brake equipped (Girling/Dunlop) Avantis, I have yet to see the need for replacement. Remember, Jaguar won at Le Mans with these same brakes. The only upgrade I have done was to utilize Ferodo Pads. And no, I am NOT an engineer.
Bill

[Dwight FitzSimons]

I have no doubt that Jim's system works very well, especially when replacing a drum equipped vehicle (not Avantis). However, being the owner of two factory disc brake equipped (Girling/Dunlop) Avantis, I have yet to see the need for replacement. Remember, Jaguar won at Le Mans with these same brakes. The only upgrade I have done was to utilize Ferodo Pads. And no, I am NOT an engineer.
Bill

But, Jaguar didn't have to go over the Blue Ridge mountain on Rte 33 in Virginia, a road where one can go a mile or so before there is ANY place to pull over off the road in case of a breakdown. The Achilles heel of the Bendix-Dunlop disc brakes is the very high line pressure they require. Losing the booster or the engine quitting makes the car unstoppable.

Do the Ferodo pads provide more friction? Also, I am curious about the Cobalt cylinders. They bolt right in in place of the stock Bendix-Dunlop ones. Do they provide a larger force on the pads?

I really don't want to replace the near new Bendix-Dunlop brakes on my '64 Avanti, but safety comes first.
--Dwight

[Topper2011]

Here is the hose I was originally sent, fairly straight out at the banjo which pointed it to the frame, especially interfering with the sharp edge of the frame.



New angle, closer to 45deg.



Tucks in closer to the caliper.



Bigger droop allowed less hose forced to the frame and less swing lock to lock giving me the clearance I needed. So for, so good.

[dadondemand]

I, too, am an engineer, and I teach a "real world" seminar to senior engineering students each semester. One of the topics is "The Five Deadly Sins of an Engineer" - unprofessional /annoying / unhelpful behaviors common to engineers that hamper their effectiveness on the job. First on the list is arrogance.

The points Alan makes are worthy of discussion and debate, but the smug way it's presented makes me shake my head, roll my eyes, and move on instead. No wonder we engineers have such a bad reputation.

As an aside, I have the Turner disk brake setup on my Avanti as well. It's elegant in its simplicity and does exactly the job it's intended for. In my book, that constitutes "excellence" in design.

[steviewonder]

Topper 2011. Did you get your new brake lines from Jim turner

[Topper2011]

Yes, I called him and decided on this angle to work for me. These are the newer S10 calipers he is now using, but IIRC, he used different calipers in the earlier design. So the hoses I got may not work for those. YMMV.