Electrical: Engine barely turns over will not start after 20 minute drive

[rogerg.123]

No problem! I hope you guys like a mystery: the generator is charging beautifully, and I have been over the past few days monitoring the voltage of the battery. When I left on my test drive today it was 6.33. I drove it for 20 minutes at a nice rate of speed 40 miles, an hour, made a U-turn headed back home, turned into the neighborhood, and the car died out. Pull the emergency brake, put it in neutral press to start a button, and the car would barely turn over much less start. After an adventure getting it back home. The first thing I did was put my voltmeter back on the battery and see if it was dead and lo and behold. The voltage of the battery during this trip increased from 6.33 to 6.42. But the car at least right now will not crank, it just barely turns over. I must have the most problems out of everyone on this menu. And it was running beautifully. Didn't miss a lick didn't die out one time, I'm really puzzled. It's a problem for tomorrow. Thanks in advance for any ideas as usual all the best, Roger.
PS I did install a ground wire from a small screw on the casing of the generator and grounded it to the block at the water pump just a side. FYI note see pic and the green wire. I think this has nothing to do with anything.

[Big Dan]

No problem! I hope you guys like a mystery: the generator is charging beautifully, and I have been over the past few days monitoring the voltage of the battery. When I left on my test drive today it was 6.33. I drove it for 20 minutes at a nice rate of speed 40 miles, an hour, made a U-turn headed back home, turned into the neighborhood, and the car died out. Pull the emergency brake, put it in neutral press to start a button, and the car would barely turn over much less start. After an adventure getting it back home. The first thing I did was put my voltmeter back on the battery and see if it was dead and lo and behold. The voltage of the battery during this trip increased from 6.33 to 6.42. But the car at least right now will not crank, it just barely turns over. I must have the most problems out of everyone on this menu. And it was running beautifully. Didn't miss a lick didn't die out one time, I'm really puzzled. It's a problem for tomorrow. Thanks in advance for any ideas as usual all the best, Roger.
PS I did install a ground wire from a small screw on the casing of the generator and grounded it to the block at the water pump just a side. FYI note see pic and the green wire. I think this has nothing to do with anything.

Well, the best technical answer I can give you is: it's broken!

If you have any doubts about the green wire used and that stud being for redundant grounding, remove it and test for continuity between the stud and the case of the generator with your meter. If you get continuity, that's exactly what it's for. The bolts I was referring to (not knowing if you had a grounding stud on the generator) are the ones on the back of the generator that hold the back plate to the case. No sweat, a ground is a ground.

Now don't get "scope locked " on your electrical rewire and being cautious about that. It could be anything - or any connection. And frankly if you didn't have a few burps after a rewire, we'd all hate you. And stop making U-turns, that will do it every time! We already had to tell Greg Diffen not to make right turns, but he's in England where earths magnetism is different.

Seriously though, let's go back and check your connections to your ignition system - at the coil, at the distributor, on/to your ignition switch, and at the starter solenoid. Check any wire breaks you may have along those wires to ensure your connectors are completely engaged. Check your battery cable connections at the battery and at the starter solenoid. And check your cable connection from the starter solenoid down to the starter. Pay particular attention to your engine grounding strap connections. Anything come loose during the drive? Are those naughty little points of yours, still ok? No fire because of those earlier right? Or, when you cleaned those did you bump a wire down thee that REALLY made it work. Check the wire and grommet for fraying coming through the distributor wall from it's origin in the distributor to it's terminal point.

Still nothing?

Now this is going to sound really stupid, but after you check those connections, take hold of your wire bundles and gently shake them - all of them. Then try to start the car again. I say this because I've had a bare wire, or connector, just touching someplace enough that it shorted out the ignition or a loose/marginal plug connection and it did exactly what you describe. And most times (but not always) if you gently shake the bundles, it is just enough to temporarily break that short and the car will start - and run, until the next time you turn the wheel, or shift, or turn right, and it's just enough force in one direction to retouch that shorted spot! Watch and listen for sparks when you do it.

Try that and get back to us. Charge system test may be in order. Just for giggles and grins the next time it runs, check the voltage at the battery while it's running. Should be about 7-8 volts (if the regulator is adjusted properly).

Did you replace any of the components I mentioned - coil, distributor parts, starter solenoid, battery cables?

Oil Pressure and Temp were all ok when you drove? Mechanical fuel pump?

[rogerg.123]

Thank you Dan, I have my assignment for tomorrow, I’ll do it like a checklist!
Side Note after returning from the movie tonight, at 9pm I just opened the door, hit the gas pedal once and hit the starter button and it fired up as usual first crank!!! I’m on it, thanks again, Roger

[Big Dan]

Oh Lord! Well, just check everything out to be sure. Mr. Spock once said: "If you can't find where something is, then logic dictates that if you eliminate every place it is not, eventually you will find it." Good luck (just a feeling but, start in the distributor - and once it's running, let it warm up in the driveway to see if it stalls so you're not afoot a mile out).

[mbstude]

My guess is that your starter and battery cables aren’t heavy enough for a 6 volt system.

[Big Dan]

Good point. I'm not sure if he changed those out. And it started ok to begin with. But using cables too small for a 6-volt system is an oft overlooked event! Those should be at least a 1/0 AWG, right? But it still doesn't tell us why it died.

[rogerg.123]

Thank you MB but early on through the guidance of our friends here on this site I replaced all of the supply cables with HUGE diameter wires and I did immediately put my hands on them and they were not hot!

[yeroldad]

My first though is the starter. When it gets hot, up to temperature, it just might be 'dragging'. That is usually the bushings, see if they are sloppy, replace if needed, with a touch of good grease, and good to polish the armature and install new brushes at the same time. Look at the windings, if they look burnt, melted, etc. You can ohm them.

[Big Dan]

Yeah, but then that doesn't explain why it died in the first place. Isn't electricity fun! This is a job for Radio Roy!

[altair]

Voltage alone is not enough it is the amperage that matters, have the battery load tested.

[rogerg.123]

Now this is a possibility, I received the battery with the car. It was over a year old then. I did use a hydrometer to check and it indicated good but no never did a load test, will give that a try, thank you, Roger

[6hk71400]

Having owned several 6 volt systems, from V8's to 6 Cylinder Commanders to Champions, the hard starting can usually be traced to two battery cables. Unless you use a Grade 0 or 00 battery cable you will have trouble starting cold and especially hot. Run your Positive cable from Battery to ground on the head or frame. Run your negative to the solenoid. You will be surprised how fast the car spins and starts.

A hard draw would have both the battery and starter checked. As to why the car stalled, what was the temp gauge reading when it stalled? If a weak connection somewhere on the system, it could cause a stall. I use a Grade 0 cable on the start side of my 57 GH starter spins high speed and when warm, one turn of the starter and we are off.

Bob Miles
Yes, isn't electricity fun!

PS. One of the more frustrating things is when a wire appears to be fine but with a slight shift in position will reveal the wire has a broken connection.

[rogerg.123]

On the recommendation of the good guys on this forum, I have new HUGE wires on the battery. The wires were not warm at all at time of incident. Additionally the engine temp showed just below the optimal operating range on the dash gauge and the engine did not seem hot. Connections is looking like the culprit…big job ahead and I find the terminals on the ignition switch and on the headlamp switch to be very confusing…thank you, long day tomorrow running down connections and etc., Roger

[6hk71400]

Start with the wires at the ignition switch and work you way out. A slight movement can break the connection or a loose connection can cause the stall

[Big Dan]

Late night note.......I just remembered, my truck did this exact same thing once just after I got it all together, and it turned out to be the coil going out. When it got warmed up it would just quit (and it was one of those supposedly bullet-proof Flamethrower Coils). Did you replace the coil? Believe it or not a good number of those are bad off the shelf!

Guessing at this point. I'll let you check all your stuff out before I throw any more at you!

[rogerg.123]

I did replace it just because but I still have the old one , thanks for the idea, Roger

[Big Dan]

If you don't find anything obvious and it still does this after warming up, try swapping out those coils and check. Electrical troubleshooting is a mystery!

[rogerg.123]

Okay, an update for anyone who might be interested: I spent copious hours checking wiring..every connection, battery, etc, all points as recommended by the fine people of this forum. I’m proud and puzzled to say not one was wrong, lose or otherwise bad.
Backing up an taking a look at the problem with a fresh eye, I believe I have 2 separate problems. One being the slow cranking and one being the fact that it died as I pulled into the neighborhood after a drive.
Now I know I stated that there were no starting problems, however after putting more thought into it I realized that when the car is cold it always start with only one partial revolution of the engine…meaning it starts without you hearing the starter at all….I mean it starts immediately without any multiple cranking…Keep in mind the v8 is new…I replace every moving part and machined it up from 232 to 259..so it cold starts right away.

Now contrast that starting after it died out when turning into the neighborhood, the car had been running and then died while making the turn. when I tried to restart it on that occasion it took/takes more cranking than the cold start. This is when it cranked about 5 or 6 times and then cranking slowed to none.

after considering the above I decided to approach this adducing I have 2 problems: A dragging starter and A mystery reason that the car died out.
I have not been able to replicate the dying out but I have replicated the slow cranking by simply Turing the key off and then seeing how long it cranks before it starts dragging. All the while battery is strong and fine.

I decided to have the started RE Rebuilt by a pro this time, assuming I made some kind of error when I rebuilt it.

As for the dying, I’ll have to replicate it before it can be solved.

Thank you all for ongoing support and comments,

Roger

[Big Dan]

So, is it time for the Indian Chief yet? I believe your prior "no fire" problem and the quitting while driving issue are related. I'd go over your distributor again with a fine-tooth comb and make sure that not only are all your wires not shorting and tight, but also that the tab in the top of the cap is making good contact and the cap is SECURE. And just for grins if that doesn't help start it, I'd swap you old coil back in and try it. And, you are right, I think you have two problems, and they are not related. You said your battery is a year old. So, it should still be ok. And your cables are large. Do you remember the gauge? Should be at least "1/0" and probably "0" for a 6-volt system.

[Son O Lark]

If you have a WCFB carb, they are sometimes known to die during left hand turns. They need to have a baffle installed. Your hot cranking problems could be the starter or battery. Old helpful tip is to run a ground cable or strap to the starter bolts with clean connections. Clean connections are super important with six volt systems.

[Big Dan]

My modern Edelbrock 750 carb on my truck does exactly the same thing but with hard right turns!

[rogerg.123]

Carb is a Stromburg 2 barrel. I will definitely take your advice and add that ground strap for sure. The battery is good. Connections are new wires are huge. Thank you very much for the suggestions Roger.

[Alan]

I had trouble with my 53K doing the same thing, till I took it to a rebuilder and he took a late 40's through early 50's Cad Ambulance 4 pole Delco starter and put the Stude snout on it. With the 4 pole it fired off when hot just like it did when cold.

[rogerg.123]

Thank you Dan I am certainly gonna go over that distributor again, I must admit, I mainly looked at my wiring. I did not close enough at some of those small connections on the distributor cap. Definitely will do that. The cables I don’t know how many zeros they are, but they’re huge. I would say with the insulation a half inch thick and they never get warm now. Thanks for the advice from everyone. , Roger.

[Big Dan]

Good! My 1/0 ga wires are just slightly (like 1/32) over 1/2 inch thick with insulation so you are ok there. If you get bored, you might pull the starter off and make sure all the metal mating surfaces are BARE and clean - both on the starter and the bell housing - just to ENSURE there is enough of a good HEAVY ground. Did you paint the starter when you paint the starter when you rebuilt it?

[yeroldad]

If you did all the things I wrote before to the starter; bushings, brushes, armature, it should be good to go, unless the windings are damaged, and an ohm meter will tell you if the armature is good or bad. I doubt the windings are bad, though. Usually it's the bushings. The stalling out while going around a corner indicates to me that the float level is too high, causing fuel to slop into the carb and flooding the motor, which is why it has to be cranked over a lot to restart. I am speaking from over 50 years experience, not guessing and sending you on a wild goose chase.