Fuel System: What is acceptable fuel-level in the bowl? (57 Golden Hawk/Stromberg WW carb)

[bsrosell]

Hi, starting a new thread on my 57 Golden Hawk carb issues. Wondering if anyone knows what the correct fuel-level IN THE BOWL should be?

Quick context; have all-rebuilt chassis/engine/carb etc.., and have been trying to start it up just to confirm "all good" before mounting radiator, Supercharger, and doing the 20min run-in. Had problems starting and running overly-rich, having to manually open the choke to keep it runnign for 20 seconds or so.

-checked my R2 Carter fuel-pump, thinking over-pressuring perhaps; got ~6 psi before the fuel filter/relief, and just under 5psi going into the carb (I have a return line and the 0.040" relief orifice on fuel-filter bulb). Seems in-line with the 57 Shop Manual (fuel-pump pressue supposed to be 5-7psi). So not OVER-pressured....

-Then had carb professionally rebuilt at Daytona Parts, and received it back with their flat-needle seat, and the float adjusted quite a bit lower (maybe 10/32") than the 7/32" in Shop Manual. Daytona explained this as deliberately done for both less-dense unleaded gas, and due to the flat (not a true needle) float shutoff.
(photo below)
Dufus recommended I try running with the carb "open", and see what the float and needle are doing. Did so tonight.

1) was able to start by covering ("choking") the carb with my hand, and barely keep running by raising my hand "just right". Would not run with my hand removed. (seems logical to me, but I've never tried running a car with the top of the carb removed before).

2) measured the fuel level in the bowl; pretty close to 7/8", or a bit less. Maintained this as I fussed with it, running or trying to do so; float seems to be working properly.

Does anyone know what the fuel level SHOULD be, since I can't go by my float setting apparently?
I searched the web, found a Stromberg manual listing the fuel-level from top of the bowl for MANY makes of cars and models of Strombergs. Most were 5/8" or close to that (including WW carbs for other applications; but no information for anything newer than '55, nor Hawks)

Therefore my 7/8" fuel-level (maybe a bit less) seems high, considering my float is already very LOW and fuel-pump pressure is correct. Unless the Hawks /289 did have a higher fuel-level than the apparently typical 5/8"?

I'd like to adjust it best I can while I have it apart, instead of finding out it floods easily when I finally get to driving the car at some point. Also seems "wrong" to be moving that float even FARTHER away from the 7/32" spec....??
Thanks!
Barry

[Mike Van Veghten]

ALSO, a note to remember...

The higher the fuel level is, the richer the engine will run.
The lower the fuel level is, the leaner the engine will run.

Why...he says !?

Because with the fuel level higher than ideal, the easier it is for the airflow, flowing through the booster ventures to pull the fuel up the passages and into the air stream.
With the fuel level lower than ideal, the more difficult it is for the airflow through the booster ventures to pull the fuel up the passages and into the airstream.

Mike

[altair]

I think you are reading too much in to this, the float level is not a critical issue for running/testing when the float level is established at the factory it should never be adjusted for the life of the carb. You may also have some linkage problems. When the engine is cold the choke should snap closed when the throttle is actuated, the moment it starts the choke should open slightly and the RPM should be increased via the high speed idle cam. As the choke spring heats up the pressure is released and the choke will open fully and the high speed idle will gradually reduce to a normal idle. If fuel is not going through the system, ie the jets I would remove them and assure they are open and clear (I don't trust any body a big name means nothing). Those carburetors were used on thousands of cars that drove millions of miles. They normally never have to be "adjusted" just cleaned from time to time and jets replaced as they do wear oversize. On occasion a jet can be clogged with debris, some will clear with compressed air and some require a probe pushed through. I had experienced a jet that had some original machining inside and nothing would remove it other than a hand operated jet cleaner tool, it is like a small drill bit operated by your fingers and turned very slowly and worked through the jet. If jets are available they should be replaced. I have reduced the opening of a warn jet by silver soldering over the opening then drill the opening with a smaller size drill. Perhaps your carb was incorrectly assembled because if it was all correct you should be able to install it on the engine and it should start with no issues. I have an AFB on my 259 that I got from a swap meet, I took it apart and cleaned all the internals, adjusted nothing, reassembled it and installed it on the engine and it started after only a moment of turning. The auto choke snaps shut and opens gradually as it heats up and after a couple of kickdowns the idle returns to normal.

[jackb]

So...... today's gas requires no modification to factory settings ? I ask because I still have performance issues with my Commander 6 carb.

[altair]

Todays gas requires no modifications or adjustments to your carburetor, originally when gasoline engines were introduced there was no tetraethyl lead mixed in the fuel because the engines were of a low compression and low speed, As engines became higher performers detonation became an issue and the counter for that was the introduction of lead. When lead became an environment issue it was removed and for a short time there was no anti detonation chemicals and modern engines were equipped with knock sensors to control detonation, when detonation occurred the sensor triggered the ignition timing and retarded the timing until the detonation was reduced. Then the introduction of ethanol came along because of a so-called shortage of fuel at the time however it was just an additional means for the corn farmers to sell more corn so they could turn it into alcohol. The alcohol that is produced is not intended for human consumption however is drinkable and is non poisonous. When the process is completed ethanol is introduced to poison the product so that it cannot be consumed by humans. With this mixture of poisoned alcohol mixed with gasoline will not change the performance of your engine, the alcohol will act as an anti-detonation component and will allow your engine to operate the same as it did 60+ years ago. The only adjustment that can be made is to your timing, there is a setting on the distributor for premium or regular fuel. These cars never required premium fuel and therefore never required the adjustment unless you preferred to use premium fuel.
There is nothing in the carburetor that is adjustable, jets are jets, the float level is adjustable but for no purpose, idle jets are adjusted for the best idle. As far as performance there are no adjustments other than a different carburetor. Carburetors are designed and built for the best performance possible and the only thing you can change are the jets but at what purpose and cost.

[bsrosell]

ALSO, a note to remember...

The higher the fuel level is, the richer the engine will run.
The lower the fuel level is, the leaner the engine will run.

Why...he says !?

Because with the fuel level higher than ideal, the easier it is for the airflow, flowing through the booster ventures to pull the fuel up the passages and into the air stream.
With the fuel level lower than ideal, the more difficult it is for the airflow through the booster ventures to pull the fuel up the passages and into the airstream.

Mike

Thanks Mike; exactly; thus my question; what SHOULD the fuel level be in the bowl?
Simply wanting to adjust the float level while its all apart now (FARTHER down??) if 7/8" of fuel is too high. Kind of a pain in the backside doing ANYTHING with the carb once that air-box is on :-

I had it adjusted to 7/32" exactly when I rebuilt it, but never thought to measure fuel level before sending it in to Daytona. (I sent it to them because a friend with several 56J, hawks etc always has had good luck with them, and they always run right away as you mention; are tested and adjusted on their V8 as part of the rebuild).

As far as why it didn't start and run very well initially, Daytona DID comment my passages were very dirty even though I had soaked it overnight.

Altair, I did go through and confirm all jets were perfectly clean, all parts were good condition, before I sent it in. (but I never removed the plugs to clean passages). And I have all new fuel lines, cleaned gas-tank, fuel-filter....) Since my engine is sitting naked on the chassis, I also had forgotten to "pump" the accelerator (by hand) which also means it wasn't on high-idle. Linkages were set by Daytona but I will recheck, particularly per Golden Hawk specs. I think it will start OK when I put the top back on (with the choke in place), now that I was reminded I need to manually give that accelerator pump a "pump", dah... )
Just a matter of whether my float (and level of fuel in the bowl) is pretty close to where it should be or not.
Thanks!

[DEEPNHOCK]

Interesting thread.
If 'nothing' had changed through the years, I'd stick with the Stude Service Manual spec's (which most likely came from Stromberg)
But. through the decades the fuel has changed, which makes this a salient question.

[bezhawk]

It won't matter where you set it on THAT carb, unless you replace the missing float pivot pin retaining spring. It holds the pivot in place for the float to pivot off of, instead of the whole assembly floating. It will never hold the float adjustment the way it is now.
In your pic it doesn't show up.

[doofus]

Barry, listen to Bezhawk. somebody goofed up and left out the pivot pin retainer clip. once that is installed try again to run "Topless", hand choking is correct since it's so cold up near the arctic circle. you can run a while to check carb without engine getting hot. when you mount rad. add a brace to keep the rad. from leaning into the fan. it's pretty amazing how much air that fan pulls!!! Luck Doofus

[altair]

Photo of the spring

[bsrosell]

thanks for taking the time to look closely guys. Unfortunately (? ) unless I'm missing a DIFFERENT clip in your photo Altair, I think my photo simply wasn't focused enough (and the parts are bright and clean to blend together). The clip is there, unless again there's a 2nd one I'm not seeing in YOUR photo.
Here is a better view; all look Kosher?

If so, I'll try asking Daytona's guy about fuel level in bowl; he's the one that first mentioned how important THAT is, not where float is set. Whether he knows what it should be is a different question of course :-)

[bezhawk]

Thanks for clarifying. It's there alright! I would set the float level 10% lower than stock...no more. Also check the float for leaks. Sometimes the solder develops a leak. Also, the power valve should be a #53, and those air bleeds look rather large.

[altair]

That clarifies the issue of the missing spring, however on my carb the float travel from open to closed doesn't come near to the brass baffle, when the needle is closed there is close to 1/16" space under the baffle, in your photo it appears to be touching, maybe it is photo perception. The distance under the baffle would be directly related to the float level, have the boys at Daytona check it.

[bsrosell]

UPDATE: finally got time to tinker with carb and do some research.
I found the Stromberg specs for the '57 Golden Hawk:

a) fuel level measured FROM THE TOP of bowl should be 5/8" like most of the other WWs (my 7/8" mentioned in earlier post was from the BOTTOM of the bowl; liquid level... made sense to me!)

b) Power Bypass Jet is a #74 as specified.

c) gap between the brass baffle and the float is at least 1/16" or more.

d) checked the bleeder diameter, that was right on for both (looked up the actual Stromberg part number from catalog, shows # 70 drill bit = 0.028"; . Looks like the one change between 6-121C and next iteration, 6-122A.

SO, back to fuel level. As I said above, I figured fuel level was truly 'level in the bowl'. How silly of me; I called Daytona about this, and it is measured from the top of the bowl down. Doing it THAT way, it measured almost 3/4"; (too little fuel). Long story short, I ended up adjusting the float back to almost exactly the 7/32" float spec. In my case, having fuel (running it with top off), I measured it without using my finger on the tang; it is just under 7/32" (see photo).

If I push a bit on the tang like instructions say when rebuilding a carb, it just hits the gauge (but these flat needles are compressible; seems more accurate to measure float WHERE IT TURNS THE FUEL OFF, right?
At this point, I had almost exactly 5/8" "fuel level" (see photo). This is using Premium non-oxygenated gas, so float is where float will be. So I'm adjusting it already for leaded vs modern gas, if there is a difference.

I don't know what Daytona was adjusting to, but I would have been starving out a lot I think. I had to bend that float back quite a bit.

After all this, engine runs smoothly for ~30 seconds (no radiator yet) if I open the choke a little bit more with my finger. But still won't start unless I open choke manually a bit too.
Thanks for all the help confirming my fuel pump and carb operation. New questions on setting the choke in next post :-)
Barry