Fuel System: R2 major fuel problem

[Chuckla]

Got my R2 back from Ohio, had intermittent problems with the carb loading up, as if the floats had stuck open. Barely runs until the engine is over 2500 rpm- I guess it finally catches up with the incoming fuel; won't idle or even close to it- huge clouds of white smoke. Gas even gets forced out through the gasket between the air horn and the body- it's wet, and there is fuel collecting in the depression in the manifold behind the carb.

Michael and Jon Myer pulled the air horn and reset the floats before shipping the car back, but the problem persists. At one point the trick of clamping off the inlet hose, running the carb dry, a couple of raps on the carb, and unclamping to blow crap out of the needle/seats seemed to work, but it fails on repeated tries since.

Any suggestions? I'm desperate!

Chuck

[studegary]

Are you running just the stock fuel pump? Do you have an electric pump? If so, you may need a pressure regulator.
Are your fuel filters working? Are you collecting debris in them? You may be getting debris in the needle/seat after each cleaning.
Are all of the fuel lines, including return, in good condition and working?
I would start by changing the filters and the needle & seat.
Without being at the car, it is hard to go further on analysis. .

[kxet]

Clouds of white smoke maybe mean oil in gas, bad diaphram in pump. Is it the double diaphragm pump? They will suck oil into fuel if bad.

[345 DeSoto]

Oil being sucked into the fuel system through the valve stems or from the crankcase, and excessive fuel pump pressure...

[JoeHall]

So you shipped the car to Ohio for a fuel problem. They adjusted the floats and shipped it back to you, still inoperable?

[bezhawk]

Check for cracked float(s). One could be filling and not 'floating' like it should. R2 carbs had inserts in them so they didn't crush under supercharger pressure.

[studeski]

Had a similar problem on my R2 Daytona. On the right side of the carb, the screw holding the linkage on the secondary shaft was backed way out allowing the secondaries to open by themselves and flooding the engine.

[altair]

The floats are simple and almost fool proof and should never need "adjusting". A float can fail if it is allowed to sit in water and corrode or if the water has frozen and cracked the float then it will become a submarine and will allow uncontrolled quantities of fuel to enter. A very small crack will not allow the water to enter but gasoline will, and cause the float to sink. To eliminate the floats remove the top of the carb and look, if they are floating as designed then the only remaining issue is the needle valve. Some needle valves are steel tipped and can be subject to static and pick up metallic bits from the tank. A rubber tipped needle can reduce this substantially or a quality filter before the carb will help. It is just a simple process of elimination. When you notice the white smoke (may be steam) smell it, it will either be antifreeze or gasoline.

[Chuckla]

Actually I sent it to Ohio to finish a restoration I started 30 years ago, before a heart attack which stopped my work on it. I had done all the mechanical work, including an engine rebuild, and in 2017 sent it Michael Myer to finish- beginning with engine startup and getting it running well. Then he painted it, installed a Rene Harger interior, put in some modifications from a wrecked 83 like rain gutters, three point seat belts, A/C, etc. Included was replacing all the rubber hoses, new fuel filter, etc. The fuel pump is a SI pump with a fitting added for supercharger pressure on the back side of the pump. I picked the car up in August and drove it about 500 miles before Dayton and Mansfield, and the trouble only started on the way to Mansfield. While there it ran fine intermittently, but displayed the flooding behavior once in a while. Did the "clamp off gas line, run carb dry, unclamp gas" trick to try to wash out the needle and seat of any debris, and it seemed to work once only, couldn't repeat it. The car went back to Myer's on a truck because of a failed brake booster after the meet. While it was in Duncan Falls getting a new booster, Mike and Jon pulled the air horn and installed new needles and seats. It apparently ran OK when they put it on the truck to bring it to Georgia, where I am, but it barely made it from the truck into my garage, gasoline spraying from the "sealed" screw at the top rear of the carb, and fuel collecting in the depressions in the intake manifold. I know it isn't oil from the valve stems, because I installed drain lines from the valve covers to the pan. Have tried several times since to start it, but the behavior is the same. At this point the carb is in the mail to Dave Tbow for a complete rebuild.

[41 Frank]

I have been fighting the same problem with my R-2 and after numerous contacts with the Cooperator folks, Bob Palma and especially Jim Pepper, we solved the problem. It had been running somewhat rich but as time went by it started flooding something terrible. It would only run a few minutes and then choke out on the excess fuel. Turned out it was not the floats, not the needle and seat,not the fuel pump, not the float level. Evidently when I went through the carb earlier this year I inadvertently got the two small gaskets under the primary fuel boosters in backwards so that it blocked air flow that atomizes the fuel and they were just dumping raw fuel into the intake manifold. This is what I surmised anyway. After everything else had failed, (I had the carb off at least 12 times) Jim had me check the removable primary boosters one more time to check them for damage from backfire, cracks, etc. It was then that I spotted the little gaskets under the boosters appeared to be in wrong. I turned them around, checked the float level one more time and slapped the carb back on. I had no preconceived idea that I had fixed anything but low and behold it ran like a charm. I now feel proficient enough working on AFB carbs that I can work on them blind folded. ha ha. I felt sort of dumb as I have rebuilt numerous carbs during my career as an automotive technician. All sorts of other problems cropped up during the rebuild process. One kit I had did have an accelerator pump who's stem was too short and another had a pump with a stem that was too narrow and consequently puked fuel past the seal out the top of the carb as used on supercharged applications. On the advice of a local Chapter member who had had a similar problem I called Daytona Parts in Florida and ordered another overhaul kit for the R-2 application and it had all the right parts and included their special Daytona Float valve, so no more needle and seats to go bad. It also promises a more constant fuel supply throughout the entire rpm range at lower float levels. This post is probably not of much help to the original poster as he appears to be at the mercy of outside assistance. I put this information on here mainly so others may gain knowledge.

[JoeHall]

Actually I sent it to Ohio to finish a restoration I started 30 years ago, before a heart attack which stopped my work on it. I had done all the mechanical work, including an engine rebuild, and in 2017 sent it Michael Myer to finish- beginning with engine startup and getting it running well. Then he painted it, installed a Rene Harger interior, put in some modifications from a wrecked 83 like rain gutters, three point seat belts, A/C, etc. Included was replacing all the rubber hoses, new fuel filter, etc. The fuel pump is a SI pump with a fitting added for supercharger pressure on the back side of the pump. I picked the car up in August and drove it about 500 miles before Dayton and Mansfield, and the trouble only started on the way to Mansfield. While there it ran fine intermittently, but displayed the flooding behavior once in a while. Did the "clamp off gas line, run carb dry, unclamp gas" trick to try to wash out the needle and seat of any debris, and it seemed to work once only, couldn't repeat it. The car went back to Myer's on a truck because of a failed brake booster after the meet. While it was in Duncan Falls getting a new booster, Mike and Jon pulled the air horn and installed new needles and seats. It apparently ran OK when they put it on the truck to bring it to Georgia, where I am, but it barely made it from the truck into my garage, gasoline spraying from the "sealed" screw at the top rear of the carb, and fuel collecting in the depressions in the intake manifold. I know it isn't oil from the valve stems, because I installed drain lines from the valve covers to the pan. Have tried several times since to start it, but the behavior is the same. At this point the carb is in the mail to Dave Tbow for a complete rebuild.

So there's about 30 years more of, "the rest of the story" (Paul Harvey). Glad you have not given up on the project. Sounds like you're a LTS regarding the heart attack, and hopefully all continues to go well with that. Now, if you can just overcome this one last issue with the Avanti, you will be motoring down the highway thinking how great it is when a plan comes together. Best of luck!

[Chuckla]

I'm wondering about the fuel return line, and the restriction I have been reading about here. Most of my Studebaker life has been spent with a 56J I restored in the 70s, and several other non-supercharged cars, none of which had return lines. I'm wondering if a clogged return line restrictor could cause the fuel to be overpressured, lifting the needles off the seats and causing my problem.

Where is the restrictor? If it is in the T before the fuel pump, that seems possible to me, especially since there is no fuel filter between the tank and the T.

Does this make sense?

[bezhawk]

If it is the type with the canister filter, then the "T" is at the pressure output of the fuel pump. The fitting that screws into the brass junction should have a small hole in it even though it is a 1/4" barb. If it is the glass sediment bowl type further up with a return line off it, then the 90 fitting the return line screws into should be restricted.
I believe it's either .045 or .060. I can't recall off hand.

[StudeNorm]

I had a rebuilt fuel pump fail at the diaphragm and start pumping fuel into the s/c thru the equalizer tube. Found it when I pulled the bonnet off the carb and fuel drained out as it was heading into the carb.