R3 intake and exhaust manifold questions

[Alan]

Lighten up on Stone. He was the wallet. He never made anything himself. He had others build stuff for him and had no quality control. I built all his oil pans for 37 years. One time I asked him, "Don't you put names on these pans so you know who they go back to, I would be pissed if I sent you a pan that was straight and perfect and got back some junk like you give me to work on." He never looked at or inspected the parts I made, just threw them in the back of his truck and split. I welded up the first few R3 manifolds for him that he converted to the smaller R1-2 port size. I told him that he should get new core boxes made rather than weld, since I did not like the neck down of the port. You can not get a tig torch too far down into the port to do it right. On the iron R3 manifolds, I have seen one at Paxton in 66 or 67. Joe G. tried to sell it to me along with a a pair of R3 heads. I told him I wanted an aluminum one and it was $160 more.

[Hawklover]

Thank the lord for Jon Myer!!

Lighten up on Stone. He was the wallet. He never made anything himself. He had others build stuff for him and had no quality control. I built all his oil pans for 37 years. One time I asked him, "Don't you put names on these pans so you know who they go back to, I would be pissed if I sent you a pan that was straight and perfect and got back some junk like you give me to work on." He never looked at or inspected the parts I made, just threw them in the back of his truck and split. I welded up the first few R3 manifolds for him that he converted to the smaller R1-2 port size. I told him that he should get new core boxes made rather than weld, since I did not like the neck down of the port. You can not get a tig torch too far down into the port to do it right. On the iron R3 manifolds, I have seen one at Paxton in 66 or 67. Joe G. tried to sell it to me along with a a pair of R3 heads. I told him I wanted an aluminum one and it was $160 more.

[Hawklover]

Who is selling "corrected" R-3 intakes to fit standard R-1 heads??

[PackardV8]

Who is selling "corrected" R-3 intakes to fit standard R-1 heads??

AFAIK, no one is at present offering those. Supposedly, John Erb bought the patterns from Lionel Stone, but he hasn't put them back into production.

jack vines

[Hawklover]

Many thanks for the update Jack.

AFAIK, no one is at present offering those. Supposedly, John Erb bought the patterns from Lionel Stone, but he hasn't put them back into production.

jack vines

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Lionel Stone's performance parts

Lighten up on Stone. He was the wallet. He never made anything himself. He had others build stuff for him and had no quality control.

Lionel Stone was responsible for the final product, whether he did any of the work or not. There is no other position that is defensible.
-Dwight

[PackardV8]

Lionel Stone was responsible for the final product, whether he did any of the work or not. There is no other position that is defensible. -Dwight

Agree, Dwight, but Alan is also right. While Lionel Stone (and Dick Datson) had their considerable shortcomings, we all owe them a debt of gratitude. They were leaders in keeping Studebaker performance alive in the dark days when few others bothered to offer anything.

jack vines

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Agree, Dwight, but Alan is also right. While Lionel Stone (and Dick Datson) had their considerable shortcomings, we all owe them a debt of gratitude. They were leaders in keeping Studebaker performance alive in the dark days when few others bothered to offer anything.

jack vines

Maybe. Lionel's catalog was to many of us like the lingerie section of the Sears catalog is to a teenage boy. But, the reality was like the teenage boy peeling off the lingerie and finding a plastic mannequin. I would be curious what percentage of Lionel's parts failed or required considerable rework. If a worthwhile percentage of his parts worked then he performed a worthwhile service. For me, his oil pumps went 0 for 2, and catastrophically so, therefore no debt of gratitude from me. I'm not a person who holds grudges, however, just putting my 2 cents worth toward setting the record straight.
-Dwight

[PackardV8]

Maybe. For me, his oil pumps went 0 for 2, and catastrophically so, therefore no debt of gratitude from me.

Getting OT, but for the good of the order, what was the failure mode on his R3 pumps? Were they repops or rebuilds?

jack vines

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Getting OT, but for the good of the order, what was the failure mode on his R3 pumps? Were they repops or rebuilds?

jack vines

Both oil pumps were high volume (R3-R4) repops, which have 0.5"-longer gears (& 0.5"-longer housings). The first pump locked up as soon as the newly rebuilt engine warmed up on its first test drive. There was insufficient clearance between the gears and the end plate to account for thermal expansion of the gears. The gears are steel and the housing is cast iron. Expansion rates with temperature are much higher for steel than for cast iron, so that clearance is essential (as laid out in the Avanti Shop Manual). The second pump was checked fully for these clearances, but no one noticed that Lionel's machinist had used a regular housing instead of the 0.5"-longer R3-R4 housing. The machinist had machined 0.5" deeper for the longer gears. This made the cast iron too thin and the housing simply broke in two.
-Dwight

[50pete]

Had to chime in as I just picked up a complete running 365 CI Cadillac w/dual quads, thinking maybe studillac........