Transmission / Overdrive: Pre War Champion Tansmission Problem

[ChampionRuss]

Russ here, first post. I still own my second car, a 1954 Champion K I purchased in 1969 for $100. I have repaired the BW T96 transmission in the '54 several times in the 70's and the T96 in my AMC 6 cylinder years ago. I feel the T96 is a good quality lite duty transmission.

Several years ago, I wished to purchase a pre-war car with overdrive for highway cruising, so bought a 1939 Studebaker Champion G Coupe. The '39 is a far cry from my '54. Primitive fixed anchor brakes and plain rubber upper inner A arm bushings on the strangest design front suspension. Replaced all the brake components and the A arm bushings but the OD transmission is my problem now.

The 1939-40 Champions used a Warner T84 transmission. Sort of a pre-curser to lhe 1947 up T96, the T84 has a straight cut first-reverse gear and bushings instead of needle bearings in the cluster. The OD is not an R10, but uses an internal centrifugal clutch for engagement and an electric solenoid for disengagement back to direct gear. And this particular transmission was only used for 1939 and 1940. In 1941, the transmission was "updated" with 95% different internals. Even the transmission case and gaskets were different. Makes one think the 1939-40 transmission was inferior.

My problem is I can shift into 2 gears at the same time. This completely ruins my drive. No, it's not the remote steering column linkage; I've worked on that. The 2 rods at the transmission can be disconnected from the levers, I can place the rear lever in first gear then move the forward lever in second or high at the same time.

I believe I am caught in a recall campaign that should have been fixed in 1940, but the Studebaker dealer in town has moved away. In an old auto repair manual I found online, there was a repair for "goes into two gear at a time." The transmission has to be removed, the top cover removed, the second-third shift lever pin punched out, the inner lever moved toward the main shaft and the old interlock removed and a new "super duper" interlock installed.

Most of the old timers that worked on old pre-war Champions are gone. Does anyone have any information on first year Champion remedies for shifting into 2 gears at once?

Thank you for your help. I have enclosed a picture for your enjoyment.

[rockne10]

I don't know if Jerry Kurtz has rebuilt any of the T84's or not but, he's the go to guy for all the rest.
Here's a link to his forum profile.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/member.php?5387-jerezstude

[RadioRoy]

Is there any chance of putting a T-96 into this car?

Nice looking car, BTW.

[rkapteyn]

Is there any chance of putting a T-96 into this car?

Nice looking car, BTW.

The 84 was also used inn early Jeeps but without O.D.I think that there is an interference with the frame.
Give Jerry Kurts a call! He bought one of the interlock poppets from me.
There is no better!

[Hallabutt]

I understand your concerns, but I have to wonder at what you thought you were getting, it is after all and 80 yo car. I have friends that drive these regularly, with no unacceptable transmission issues. Your problem is certainly real, but history has proven these transmissions to be very serviceable and reliable. The Warner OD dates back to about 1935, and the people that own the cars that used it, have become the envy of the owners of those cars that did not.

Jerry Kurtz is really good, but I have to believe that there are people in the Bay area that can help. If your not a member of the Antique Studebaker Club, you should join. There should be plenty of help as close as your ASC roster. Also check on the AACA forum, that's where most of the antique owner hang out.

[rockne10]

Jerry Kurtz is really good, but I have to believe that there are people in the Bay area that can help.

Right you are. Jerry's the best, but 2000 miles to the east. (717) 308-1800 if you care to reach out. Realize he is in bed three hours earlier by time zone.

Also check on the AACA forum, that's where most of the antique owner hang out.

No one "hangs out" there. They check in from week to week. We are attempting to steer their members this direction any opportunity we get. Which is not to say the Studebaker, Erskine, Rockne page of the AACA forum does not fill a need. It's just that too many owners of old Studebakers are still unaware of our page, and are immensely underserved be that omission.

[Ron Dame]

Sren't lock-outs a ball and spring in a detent? Maybe pull it and look, the fix might be self evident, like a broken spring, or needing a stronger one.

[ChampionRuss]

I understand your concerns, but I have to wonder at what you thought you were getting, it is after all and 80 yo car. I have friends that drive these regularly, with no unacceptable transmission issues. Your problem is certainly real, but history has proven these transmissions to be very serviceable and reliable. The Warner OD dates back to about 1935, and the people that own the cars that used it, have become the envy of the owners of those cars that did not.

Jerry Kurtz is really good, but I have to believe that there are people in the Bay area that can help. If your not a member of the Antique Studebaker Club, you should join. There should be plenty of help as close as your ASC roster. Also check on the AACA forum, that's where most of the antique owner hang out.

What did I think I was getting? I picked the Studebaker because it was one of few old cars to be equipped with an overdrive transmission. Unlike my '38 Chevy and '38 Buick, which were equipped with 4.11 and 4.44 rear ends, the Studebaker with OD would allow cruising on the freeway. My '54 Champion with OD cruises just fine.

What (else) did I think I was getting? Same engine as my '54, same T96 transmission as my '54, same Spicer rear end as my '54.

What (did) I get? An oddball transmission used for 2 years with an ill designed interlock system that had a bulletin published for retrofit.

What am I doing about it? Purchased a poppet from Allen Studebaker in Florida PN 199251, Group # 0747-24, as shown in the Chassis Parts Manual 1934-46, below.

What have I learned? The original 1939 Champion Shop Manual shows a completely different poppet using 3 pieces; a front and rear section with a built in ball on each outer end and a spring that goes inside each end piece. The poppet purchased from Allen is a one piece unit and fits all Champions from 1939 to 1946. I believe Allen's poppet is the later new and improved type. I'm hoping my transmission has the original 3 piece poppet and replacing with the new version will get me back on the road.

I will contact Jerry. Thank you for the help.

[Dwain G.]

The repair procedure you found (Service Bulletin #118?) is the fix for getting into two gears and locking up.. It does sound a little optimistic that this new interlock could be installed without a complete disassembly.

The part number listed in that bulletin is #199652. It was 'released for service only' and should not be installed unless the gearshift had actually locked up. That sounds like it might be a heavy duty version of #199251.

[Hallabutt]

Russ,

I know that you're frustrated but I think that it is unfair to pan the 1939-40 Champion because your car has issues. It's one thing to be late to the party but, as you already know General Motors never did made it to the party, with an OD (unless you count it's inclusion for the 1955 Chevrolet). What you got with your Chevrolet was a partially pressurized oiling system and the Dubonnet design front suspension, what a joke that was! I wonder what you say about that misstep, or GM's lack of an OD? Then there was GM's continued use of the torque tube driveline. You won't find that on a Studebaker. As for the brakes, I guess if you were only familiar with GM cars, you wouldn't have known that virtually every single auto manufacturer, other then GM, used the same system for much of the 30's and 40's. I guess that would make all of them less attractive because of their use of "primitive fixed anchored brakes."

You could have chosen any one of the other independent car manufactures and gotten an optional OD, but I guess that that wouldn't work either, because most of them used the same Warner OD that Studebaker used. You may not be aware that throughout the 30's and 40's the Warner OD was redesigned every year. When you say that "I believe I am caught in a recall campaign that should have been fixed in 1940, but the Studebaker dealer in town has moved away." since this would include almost every car manufacturer, other then GM, that all should should have been recalled? Sorry but they didn't have recalls in those days, unless the problem was epidemic, which it was not. If the original 1939-40 unit becomes too daunting for you, maybe you should consider retrofitting a T95/T96, like the one you have in your 54.

[Hallabutt]

Sorry to be a pest but in rereading your response to my original questions, I didn't see a response to the question I asked about your membership in the ASC. Will you go on record with a yes or a no to membership?

[Hallabutt]

Russ,

If you're still out there, here is something just gleaned from the local chapter's newsletter. I see no reason that the 39 trans would not be a direct substitute for the 40, but I don't know what his plans are for the parts. If you are interested in more information let me know.

We just got a new member(name deleted) They live in (deleted) and have a 1939
Champ Coupe. Here are his comments about the car.
I have some history that comes along with my 1939
coupe too. I have owned it for 44 years. After buying
it I drove it for about 6-8 months and then I decided
to take it apart and restore it. Technically it has never
been back on the road since then. After disassembling
most of the car, I went through a divorce, so not
much work was done on it for 3-4 years. Then a couple
of friends of mine helped me get the restoration
moving along. We rebuilt the motor, chassis, painted
it and assembled it enough to drive it around the
block 3-4 times. At that time more life events got in
the way and the car sat in that condition for another
10 years. At this time, I decided to hot rod the car in
the then very popular pro street design. At the time I
had a complete new chassis built for the car and a
new hot rod blown chevy motor and drivetrain along
with some body modifications to accommodate the
new motor and the big fat rear tires. This new motor
has never been fired. After 3-4 years of hot rodding
the car the project was set on the back burner and
has been there for the last 25 years. I am now ready
to get the project moving along to building a complete
car. I still have all the original parts including a
complete rolling chassis with the original complete
drivetrain