Wheels / Tires: Allowable wheel runout

[wdills]

I am still chasing the vibration on my Hawk that happens around 73 or 74mph. I have already had the drive shaft balanced with new u-joints. Also found the rear brake drums to be way out of balance, so I balanced those.

Today I measured both lateral and axial runout on the wheels. Lateral measurements varied from 0.012" to 0.024". Axial varied from 0.020" to 0.040".

Is this too much?

[Neal in NM]

Are you checking the axle flange or the wheel itself? I believe that the rule of thumb for the axle flange is .003"-.005" in any direction. In my opinion anything over .012" on a stamped steel wheel is too much. Neal

[Mike Van Veghten]

Your lateral is plenty usable, axial seems way off. Replace time. Was your dial indicator mounted solidly ? How did you measure, fixture or on the spindle/axle ?

Years back I bought a set of steel road racing wheels. I ended up returning them for the same reason as what you see. I wasn't too worried about the lateral runout, but like yours the axial was "bad".

Back when I made up my disc brakes for my Conestoga, I used Avanti replacement rotors. one day as I was figuring out how to do things, I noticed that the rotor seemed to keep spinning to one place. I stopped, took the rotor off the spindle, cleaned everything well, used some oil for lube and put everything back together.
I gave the rotor a light spin...yep defiantly one location was heavy. I ended up doing a static balance on both rotors by drilling into the edge of the rotor to remove material. One was way off the other wasn't good either. I was somewhat surprised that a flat plate could be so far off of balance.

Mike

[JoeHall]

If measured at the outer edge of the tires, your numbers are better than most. I believe most radial and lateral run out is due to the tires, at least that is the case on mine. I have experienced road 65-75 MPH vibration on most, if not every Hawk I have ever owned or driven. Most of them are smooths as silk, at speeds below 65 though. Wish I had the equipment to shave tires, and spin balance with entire rotor/drum, wheel and tire assembly. Pretty sure I could get them all to be glass smooth, but have to work with what I have.

[rkapteyn]

Dick Datson had an article in "you can drive a Studebaker forever" books explaining how to center a tire on the rim to minimize the Axial runout.
He determined the high spot and slightly deflated the tire when off the ground and put gradual more weight on the tire to move it over a little.Trial and patience until you get a feel for it.
Never tried it but feasible.
Robert Kapteyn.

[PackardV8]

I have experienced road 65-75 MPH vibration on most, if not every Hawk I have ever owned or driven.

If the axial measurements are at the wheel rim, it's as good as old steel wheels are likely to be.

What say the forum:

1. Any noticeable vibration difference between two-piece and one-piece driveshafts?

2. Most Stude pinions are not in direct center line with the crankshaft/transmission output shaft. Anyone ever cured a vibration by moving the rear axle laterally?

3. Given the age of the mounting pieces and what mounts may have been swapped and/or replaced with aftermarket, the transmission output shaft and pinion shaft angles may no longer be complementary. The two angles can be measured with an inexpensive angle finder.

Chasing vibration in the driveline, I've put enough weight into the trunk to put the frame down on the bump stops; any change in vibration? Then, put jackstands under the frame and let the rear axle hang at full droop; any difference?

Wish I had the equipment to shave tires, and spin balance with entire rotor/drum, wheel and tire assembly. Pretty sure I could get them all to be glass smooth, but have to work with what I have.

4. Back in the day, when I had a brief tenure as a service manager at a Goodyear store, we had a tire truing machine and a strobe balancer which would balance the entire rotating assembly on the car. And yes it was possible to make them glass smooth. (Today, it costs $15 for a spin balance which takes thirty seconds. Back then, If it was a Goodyear tire the customer had bought there and complained about vibration after just a spin balance, we'd spend a half-hour truing the tread and then setting up the strobe and getting that one tire as smooth as it could be, no charge for the truing and strobe work.)

A suggestion is to put the rear axle on jackstands and run it up to the speed which has the most vibration. Does one tire visibly blur at the tread? Then, remove the rear tires and wheels and note any change. Install the front tires/wheels on the rear, any change?

It is to be hoped you find something inexpensive and easy to fix.

jack vines

[wdills]

I should have stated that these measurements are on the wheel not the tire. The lateral was taken on the flat surface of the lip that the tire bead seats to (tire seat to inside of lip). The axial was taken on the flat surface of the rim, about midway between the outside edge and where the spokes connect.

[christophe]

Did they respect the position of the color marks on the tyre when they mounted it on the rim? This might have some influence.

[bezhawk]

You are not likely to get it much better, but you can try tightening a spoke opposite the highest spot. You can send them to Dayton Wheel, and they can work on them. It doesn't matter the brand, they can work on them. (Buffalo, Dayton, Kelsey-Hayes, Borrani,True spoke.....etc.)

[wdills]

They are Dayton's. This morning I found one of their documents that states that lateral and axial runout tolerance is 1/16" (0.0625). So I guess the wheels are well within spec as far as the wheel manufacturer is concerned.

[JoeHall]

If the axial measurements are at the wheel rim, it's as good as old steel wheels are likely to be.

What say the forum:

1. Any noticeable vibration difference between two-piece and one-piece driveshafts?

2. Most Stude pinions are not in direct center line with the crankshaft/transmission output shaft. Anyone ever cured a vibration by moving the rear axle laterally?

3. Given the age of the mounting pieces and what mounts may have been swapped and/or replaced with aftermarket, the transmission output shaft and pinion shaft angles may no longer be complementary. The two angles can be measured with an inexpensive angle finder.

Chasing vibration in the driveline, I've put enough weight into the trunk to put the frame down on the bump stops; any change in vibration? Then, put jackstands under the frame and let the rear axle hang at full droop; any difference?



4. Back in the day, when I had a brief tenure as a service manager at a Goodyear store, we had a tire truing machine and a strobe balancer which would balance the entire rotating assembly on the car. And yes it was possible to make them glass smooth. (Today, it costs $15 for a spin balance which takes thirty seconds. Back then, If it was a Goodyear tire the customer had bought there and complained about vibration after just a spin balance, we'd spend a half-hour truing the tread and then setting up the strobe and getting that one tire as smooth as it could be, no charge for the truing and strobe work.)

A suggestion is to put the rear axle on jackstands and run it up to the speed which has the most vibration. Does one tire visibly blur at the tread? Then, remove the rear tires and wheels and note any change. Install the front tires/wheels on the rear, any change?

It is to be hoped you find something inexpensive and easy to fix.

jack vines

Regarding your #1 question, I have said for years, 56Js have a unique vibration, that begins at the 2-piece shaft, then is amplified and heard/felt at the cardboard headliner. Every 56J I have ever driven had the same vibration, usually at 60-80 MPH, and you can put fingertips lightly on the headliner and simultaneously feel the same sound you are hearing in your ears. The only exceptions I have found were one that had the original headliner replaced by cloth, and one with a 1-piece driveshaft. Its a 56J thing, and most folks just wouldn't understand