Wheel upgrade issues

[StudeRich]

The "OTHER" issue at work here Leo, is your Rear Springs and possibly even the Front ones!

I do not have a good straight on, Side view of your '60 Wagon, and the small angled view you show may distort things, but it does appear that the ride height is quite low in the Rear and maybe a little in the Front, THAT WILL do you in as far as Tire Clearance is concerned.

On a Lark, the fronts will hit the 45 degree angle of the floorboard on turns, going up driveway aprons when Tires are too Large, Wheel offset is wrong, or Springs are weak.

[jpepper]

Pay attention to the backspace of the wheel. If I recall, the 15 X 6.5 Ford wheel has a little under a 4" backspace. There are Chrysler 15 X 6 wheels with 4"+ backspace that should work. The Lark wagon admittedly is tight. I have seen rear quarters flared a little and it is almost unnoticeable.

[Dwight FitzSimons]

Bensherb has covered the topic of Ford Crown Victoria rims well. All I have to add are a couple tidbits:
(1) In the late 60's my brother and I both had '64 Avantis. We both ordered new Ford 15x6 steel rims at our local Goodyear dealer (for Crown Vic, or whatever that car was called then) and ran radials. We never had any clearance or interference issues. I have always considered 15x6 rims to be wide enough for normal driving. Perhaps 15x6 on the front and 15x6.5 on the back would lessen the Avanti's tendency toward oversteer when cornering too fast.
(2) I have collected numerous Ford Crown Vic steel 15x6 & 15x6.5 rims when I could find them in nice shape at junkyards. As I recall the sedan ones were 15x6 & the station wagon ones were 15x6.5. So, the 15x6 Ford wheels would be late 1960s to 1982.
(3) Don't forget that these steel Ford rims have a larger seat and require larger lug nuts. NAPA has these that are necked down to use a 3/4" socket.
-Dwight FitxSimons

[LeoH]

The "OTHER" issue at work here Leo, is your Rear Springs and possibly even the Front ones!

I do not have a good straight on, Side view of your '60 Wagon, and the small angled view you show may distort things, but it does appear that the ride height is quite low in the Rear and maybe a little in the Front, THAT WILL do you in as far as Tire Clearance is concerned.

On a Lark, the fronts will hit the 45 degree angle of the floorboard on turns, going up driveway aprons when Tires are too Large, Wheel offset is wrong, or Springs are weak.

Yeah, I have to say, though the shocks may well be adequate, between the springs and coils, that could well be enough to cause me the problems I'm having with clearance. Still, flaring will have to get the job done, as running out and getting new coils all the way around and possibly re-arcing the rear springs is not in the cards in the immediate future.
Still, for anyone reading this before they do it, bear in mind this will need to be factored in for anyone else undergoing this on their car. After the fact, this all makes sense; based on what I'd read, and I didn't just go by one or 2 threads about what was needed to install new rims and radial tires, I had no inkling I had to look for all this.

[LeoH]

Maybe several more than that. There were compact Crown Vics in 1980 and up to 1990 were 15" wheels. Larger brakes necessitated the standardization of 16-inch wheels. Cop cars had full wheel covers and dog-dish covers held onto the wheel by four nubs but later switched to Explorer SUV wheels with center caps attached to the lug nuts. So when discussing, it's important to sort Crown Vic wheels into years, steel or aluminum and 15" or 16".

Bottom line - this thread reinforces and we should remember that as to wheel fitment, even when discussing post-'53 Studes, there are differences between Lark, Hawk and Avanti, then between sedan and wagon. The same with Crown Vic wheels, there are many different sizes and offsets and materials.

jack vines

Thanks Jack for putting it out there like this. If you were to do wheel/rim/tire upgrade threads and webpage searches, and I did a more than the average bear amount of it, it's pretty generic when it comes to models that these fitments work on and, one would think by now, the bases were all covered, but, at least with the 1st Generation Lark wagons, (I wouldn't be able to comment on the 2nd Gen wagons or Wagonaires), there will be issues.

[LeoH]

Apparently not all Larks (and or Crown Vic wheels) are of the same feather. I have a '64 with the early style 16" Crown Vic wheels (see image) and 225-60-16" tires. Being that most Crown Vic wheels are 16" and you state yours are 15" that might account for some of the differences. The Crown Vic 15" wheel predate the Crown Vic 16" wheels. Perhaps I'm wrong, but when most people mention Crown Vic wheels I assume they are talking about the 16" early style wheel that are most readily available and have a more common offset. - My tires are at least 3/4" wider than yours and at the standard ride height I have little to no rubbing issues at the wheel opening, and close to 2" between the tire and the leaf spring. Maybe the '61 to '64 years are that different???

Just an FYI to anyone following this thread there are seemingly THREE crown Vic wheels. The 15" version that look like a common style steel wheel, the early 16" style that has circular holes in the face and the late Crown Vic 16" Wheel that has an offset much like a front wheel drive car, oval holes and almost looks flush with the wheel edge. The images with the red Lark (images 1-3) have the early 16" Crown Vic wheels and the fourth image is of the late 16" Crown Vic wheel.

Your pictures point out something not immediately obvious, but, if you do a search, it's easy to then notice, there is a HUUUGE difference between the rear fender openings between your sedan and the early wagon rear wheel openings.

http://bringatrailer.com/2015/11/30/289-swapped-1960-studebaker-lark-wagon/


Then, when you look at the sedan and wagon difference in the 1962, it's still apparent, there is potential fit issues and obviously, Studebaker wasn't designing bodies for difference tire clearances for most of its production anyway....

http://hem.bredband.net/b284654/project/1962_2.htm

[LeoH]

Leo,

I bought the 5" wide Wheel Vintiques Ford steel wheels from Summit Racing for my '61 wagon and have 205s on them. I do still get a little bit of rubbing on the inner fender, but not constant, and I'm chalking it up to work shocks and springs. They come with a 3" backspace, which I really wish was 3 1/2" on both the front and rear, but new front springs will cure the issues with the front. Anyway, just wanted to chime in that the 5" wheel was available and was an improvement, although not a 100% cure. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/w...3403/overview/

Dean

[ATTACH=CONFIG]60664[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]60666[/ATTACH]

Thanks Dean. The thing is, iirc, I have 4" backspace as it is. I know the issue with rim fitment on a hub is more calculus than arithmetic, but I probably need a good 2" of moving the rim center outward, based on what I am looking at, in order to draw in the tire shoulder enough to clear the fender.

If it was not time sensitive and wallet sensitive, I could futz around and spend a week looking for the right alternate wheel configuration that exists on SOME car out there, but, I don't. I'm also sure, there are likely plenty of aftermarket style rims, that might even look nice, that would fill that bill, but, I've bought these and they are close enough that, as a practical matter, I'm going to make them work.
Nice looking wagon!

[LeoH]

I'm waiting for my neighbor to come by to help do this right. What with the holiday, and me just walking down the other night to knock on his door asking if he could help, I'm obliged to wait until it fits in his schedule to come on over. An exercise in enforced patience.

[1oldtimer]

Look up mine, I had the same issue and old saggy springs. The answer is front wheel drive wheels. I have an 8" rear also , so won't have to go with an offset as big as mine.

I have the original springs in my '60 wagon so they sag a little and the 205/75r15 with 15x6 ranger wheels rubbed a little on the front. I went to a used wheel place and checked to see if any wheels would fit with a disc brake kit (and a 8"). I couldn't find one that wasn't 4" wide, I went with modified front 15x5 with a 3.5" backspace and GM APV mini van rear wheels (15x6 with 5" backspace). I have 205/65 on the front and 225/60 on the rear, but I can't run stock caps because of the rear wheel offset.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53119[/ATTACH]

[bensherb]

Pay attention to the backspace of the wheel. If I recall, the 15 X 6.5 Ford wheel has a little under a 4" backspace.

Yes, I measured the backspace on the '83-'97 Crown vic wheels at 3.75".

[1oldtimer]

Leo, find a wheel shop in your area and have them move the center out a little. The place I used did it for $25 a wheel, cut the weld, moved center, trued center and re welded it back in.

[LeoH]

Leo, find a wheel shop in your area and have them move the center out a little. The place I used did it for $25 a wheel, cut the weld, moved center, trued center and re welded it back in.

Hm. Thanks, I'll look into that, that sounds pretty cost effective.

[LeoH]

Look up mine, I had the same issue and old saggy springs. The answer is front wheel drive wheels. I have an 8" rear also , so won't have to go with an offset as big as mine.

What about just getting the springs re-arched? Wouldn't that give enough clearance if that was done? It'd be simpler on the tire situation, as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Re-arced or re-arched? Which is the correct term when it comes to leaf springs?

[LeoH]

That's a lot more clearance than what I'm looking at now, although, as tight as that is, that's about as much clearance as I had with my 195s.

[1oldtimer]

In the future I'll get to the springs (front and rear) but for now the easy way was to find the wheels, down side is that I can't use the stock caps on the rear wheels. All the wheels I have came from the used wheel shop, the used stock mini van rear wheels where $25 each, the modified Ford shoebox with disc brake hoops (I have the Tuner Disc brake kit so calipers are right there) were $45 each (new hoops and used center). Plenty of room in the tire to lip and still 2-3" on the backside on the rear tires, so when the axle shifts going into a driveway at an angle or just a dip there's no fear of rubbing. On your picture, even if you clear the lip as the suspension compresses (bump or weight) the tire will go up further and hit the inside of the body curve above the lip.

That picture above is at ride height and is about 2-2.5" away from the lip. Here's the side view (I kinda like the old spring lowered look):


With the hubcaps:


Better view:


Maybe try here:

https://www.yelp.com/biz/sierra-wheel-repair-sparks