UGH: Reality Sets In

[studegary]

I don't see the Hawk/Thunderbird comparison with the two passenger 'bird. Maybe the '58-60 4 passenger 'birds. Ford sold 136,000 for those three years.

Bob P. shows 173,891 for those three years of Thunderbird production (not counting convertibles). One of you is off by a lot.

[warrlaw1]

The square bird was less of a sports car than the babybirds and the C/K was advertised as a 5 passenger sporty car. Long hood, short deck, pontoon fenders, low profile. It's arguable that both the 55, 56, 57 babybirds and the 55, 56 , 57 corvettes were chasing the Starliner's market. The production #s for the early Ford and GM sporty cars might be closer to the early C/K #s.

[56H-Y6]

Hi

Whatever we might think now, our preferences for the Studebaker Hawks over Ford Thunderbirds, customers then voted with their wallets. Not only was the Thunderbird all-new for 1958, low and elegant, it was far better distributed and supported by the Ford dealer network.

And, to put an even finer point on it, fears that the purchase of a Thunderbird might lead to ownership of an orphan and the attendant collapse in trade-in value wasn't even a concern. However much some may have preferred a Hawk, the shaky corporate health of S-P was enough to ward off many buyers. Studebaker's dealer network was so decimated, spotty in some areas and ineffective by then that its surprising they sold as many as they did.

Steve

[jnormanh]

Bob P. shows 173,891 for those three years of Thunderbird production (not counting convertibles). One of you is off by a lot.

Bob's correct. I can't add.

[8E45E]

I don't see the Hawk/Thunderbird comparison with the two passenger 'bird.

Do you think it was Hawk sales that influenced Ford to turn the Thunderbird into a 4-seater for 1958??

Craig

[raprice]

Hawk production was not "considerable" even for Studebaker when compared to Larks and Lark types. Using your 1959 as an example, there were 7788 Hawks and 131K Larks. Hawks were 5.6% of car production

Gary,
Yes, you really put the stats into perspective for us. Thank goodness for the Larks. They were able to extend Studebaker's life a few more years.
Rog

[jnormanh]

Do you think it was Hawk sales that influenced Ford to turn the Thunderbird into a 4-seater for 1958??

Craig

No. The market for two passenger cars was limited, so Ford left it to Corvette/Jaguar/Mercedes and went for the larger market of four passenger "sporty cars". The Square Bird was, I think, looking to expand the market as a more affordable and "sporty" version of the Lincoln Continental. In that market the Studebaker Hawk was a minor player.

1958 Thunderbird hard top production: 35,758

1958 Hawk V8 production: 3200?

[56H-Y6]

Do you think it was Hawk sales that influenced Ford to turn the Thunderbird into a 4-seater for 1958??

Craig

No, Ford's product planning was ruled by demographics analysis, which identified the increasing level of affluence in concert with the percentage of younger potential buyers who were two-seat sports car owners but now with families. Hawks were a confirmation, to a degree, though being essentially continuations of an existing model, tweaked to increase their appeal, didn't in their sales volume indicate the level of demand that could be anticipated.

The car that had considerable influence was their own Continental Mark II. Because of its high image and the amount of 'buzz' it created, much market research was center on what the general public as well as the buyers thought of it. Most objected to the high price, significant numbers to its large size, but general interest in the stylish proportions in a more affordable, smaller package was gleaned from the data. Unlike the terrible miss-reading of the market that culminated in the Edsel, the conclusions that lead to the four-seat Thunderbird proved spot-on. GM, who had shown similarly-configured Motorama show cars, failed to act until the Thunderbird demonstrated a very solid market segment existed. They then spent considerable effort and money to get a piece of it with Buick Riviera, Oldsmobile Toronado, Cadillac Eldorado. Success finally came with the Pontiac Grand Prix and Chevrolet Monte Carlo in the 1970's, after Thunderbird move beyond the size and price considered ideal.

Steve

[Lark Parker]

Interesting, Kurt: I believe those Canadian sales are included in the 110,847 production figure.

I say this because the 110,847 figure was arrived at by adding up the three-year production totals quoted in the huge, authoritative 1962 Automotive News Almanac, a copy of which I have had for many years and reference often. Too, the 110,847 figure is confirmed in The Standard Catalog of American Cars, Fourth Edition. One should not take The Standard Catalog as gospel because it has its share of errors, but when its figures are verified by the industry standard, Automotive News, I believe them.

To the best of my knowledge, then, I'd say the 110,847 includes Edsels sold in Canada. (The 110,847 figure only documents how many cars were produced, not where they were sold.)

BTW: I've just signed off on my proof of the December 2015 Hemmings Classic Car column and think those of you here on the forum will thoroughly enjoy it. Hemmings Editor Richard Lentinello said it was "excellent." We'll see who is first on the forum to properly identify the specific car in the column's photograph, since I am responsible for furnishing the photograph(s) used in the column, and the one I submitted was used. (The December 2015 Hemmings Classic Car should start arriving in subscriber mailboxes around October 10.) BP

Bob, I think you probably selected a photo of the exotic 1958 Studebaker Scotsman station wagon. What did I win?

[studegary]

No. The market for two passenger cars was limited, so Ford left it to Corvette/Jaguar/Mercedes and went for the larger market of four passenger "sporty cars". The Square Bird was, I think, looking to expand the market as a more affordable and "sporty" version of the Lincoln Continental. In that market the Studebaker Hawk was a minor player.

1958 Thunderbird hard top production: 35,758

1958 Hawk V8 production: 3200?

6374 V8 Hawks for 1958 (of a total of 8816 Hawks).

[STEWDI]

Do you think it was Hawk sales that influenced Ford to turn the Thunderbird into a 4-seater for 1958??

Craig

Yes, and l've thot so for years, too, Craig!

OK, it's quite certain that Henry the II and the "Whiz Kids" certainly didn't operate in that era without lots of numbers crunched from market research studies. But the Studebaker Hawk and it's predecessors were easy confirmation that a 4/5 place car was the way to go.

Compare the aggressive Ford Motor Company of the early and mid fifties, planning the T-bird, the Continental Mark II, the Edsel, responsible for initiating the GM/Ford sales race, participating fully in the horsepower race (and racing Sunday, selling Monday), re-jigging divisions and corporate organization in order to gain advantage, becoming a publicly traded company, ramping up design and engineering departments, etc, etc, to The Studebaker-Packard Corporation, passed in sales by Mr. Romney and AMC shortly after the '54 "mergers", missed bankruptcy by the slimmest of hairs in the spring of 1956, in effect closed production of their prestige line at the end of the '56 model year (please don't argue with this one!), turned down by their traditional sources of financing, and a much "poorer" (I mean financially, and premises-wise, Bob ), smaller dealer network, not even 4-door hardtop or convertible body styles available in their "bread and butter" Studebaker lines (which by the mid-fifties was a glaring omission), etc, etc. S-P would have LOVED to have sold ONE TENTH of what Ford sold!

BUT, in 1956, moribund but plucky S-P sold 19,165 Hawks of all models (in the USA, l believe?), and Ford sold 15,531 two-place Thunderbirds! In '57 it was 19,674 Hawks (26% of Studebaker's sales!) to just 21,380 facelifted T-birds. Two-place Thunderbirds were perhaps bringing in show-room traffic, but were not a real sales success. When compared to S-P's Hawk sales (which were also in the "sporty" market and compared to each other in contemporary auto publications), ...well, it would have been a big Ford Division boardroom embarrassment if Hank-the-Duce had reviewed such figures! A more roomy T-bird was definitely the way to go, and the Studebaker Hawk series of cars definitely demonstrated that!

As an aside, but maybe - just maybe - influential (at least it's a cool thought) was the fact that the Ford Motor Company's design studio was populated by many '53, '54 Studebaker coupe/hardtop owners! I remember reading that they even socialized a bit with their Studes (the FIRST Studebaker drivers club??!!), but eventually Ford made it known that they frowned upon this. Perhaps it was these guys who put forward the idea, and who first knew what the great potential could be of a sporty 4/5 place car with the backing of Ford Motor Company behind it! First the T-bird. Then the MUSTANG! Wow!

[jnormanh]

6374 V8 Hawks for 1958 (of a total of 8816 Hawks).

Oops. My error. I used Bob P's numbers instead of researching it myself.


Here are figures for each of those years. I did not include Thunderbird convertibles because Hawk had no convertible, but I did include all the oddball export and six-cylinder Hawks that were not normally available for domestic United States sales:

1958 Hawks: 3,743
Thunderbirds: 35,758