Goodbye good gas.

[jclary]

Yep...our modern vehicles have computers... Usually installed under a seat. Our vintage cars keep their computers between the owner's ears! In all instances...some are better than others!

[Jeff_H]

Was working at the farm over the holiday weekend. I anticipating using my 2 stroke post hold auger and a chain saw while there....

Last year I had a miserable experience with 3 separate chain saws where the only gas I could obtain locally at the farm was 87 octane with ethanol. If I was lucky enough to get the saws started, they would easily stall and I had to constantly keep them revved up between cuts as they'd likely stall. Hot restarts were even worse so I'd let one cool off and use another, rinse and repeat... Pulling my arm off till I was red faced from the high heat/humidity was not a fun time.

So, this weekend, I brought my own 91 octane non-ethanol from home freshly purchased for the trip. Chainsaw that I could barely keep running last year started right up and would idle just fine. I'd never touched the carb or plug, etc since last used.

[Xcalibur]

"Goodbye good gas." I wish I had a good S/C 289 for every time I've heard and read this over the past... who knows how many decades. There are always viable alternatives, which my shop full of ol' cars still frequently on the road confirms. Get one of the appropriate additives and DRIVE it!!!

[Skip Lackie]

You can thank the EPA for that. In addition, the EPA requires different gasoline formulations for different zones and different seasons.

Bruce

The EPA is probably guilty of many things, but in this case, the US Congress is mostly to blame. The Clean Air Act amendments of 1990 required the addition of oxygenates to gasoline in areas that are not in compliance with the provisions of that act. That provision was included at the behest of the chemical/petroleum industry, which wanted to sell us all gas laced with methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE). But MTBE turned out to be a carcinogen that fouled ground water, which left us with ethanol as the only practical oxygenate. The corn farmers and ethanol distillers have beaten back all attempts to eliminate the requirement ever since then.

[BShaw]

Bob,
It could have been the ethanol, but that would probably mean that every 175 hp Johnson sold that year (or years) would run the same on ethanol. That would be a BIG problem for Johnson and it would seem that the dealer and the factory would have the answer after having seen the problem a number of times.

I'd guess that it WAS fuel related if it did it on the first tank and never again. Bad gas. Old gas. Contaminants. Water?

The first 3 or 4 times I returned it to the dealer for servicing the problem was over a couple of months and over that time of using 10% ethanol gas I used it (and swore at it) quite a bit...probably going through at least 2-3 tankfuls. So, it wouldn't have been bad gas. though it possibly could have been water in the tank that I kept putting fresh E10 on top of, I guess. But, yes, one woud think that the dealer (long-time large dealer) and the factory techs that had the boat in their hands all those times would have known or experienced something if it was, indeed, a systemic problem. All I know is, I just wanted my $20,000 bass boat (that SWMBO was already not thrilled about my buying) to run right and not using ethanol in it ultimately did the trick for me. No worries now, anyway, cuz I'm now officially an old fart and prefer to just stand on the dock and fish.

[jclary]

I run the lab for an oil refinery and have been here for 22 years.... the problem is probably not the ethanol added at the refinery. It is more likely contamination from the transport truck ( which I have seen a lot of) or the retail tanks....Bruce

Here is a poster with some unique and excellent credentials for commenting on this subject. I know some of you noticed this, and have quoted his post in its entirety. Years ago, I worked for a company that provided equipment services to gas stations, car dealer service departments, and garages. We sold bulk fuel storage tanks and installed them. There probably has been some improvement in the tanks, code requirements for in-ground tank installations, etc. since then.

However, consider a huge in-ground bulk tank. Think about the environment they are exposed to. A full in-ground bulk tank weighs tons. It only takes one sharp rock, settling, shifting (even a slight imperceptible earth quake) that could cause even the tiniest leak. Even the fill-covers for those tanks usually have a slight rounded upward protrusion to keep them above rainwater run-off. However, they are not immune from seal problems, or being overwhelmed by heavy rain.

I have pulled tanks from the ground with quarter size holes. Others, with an almost undetectable pin hole. The problem is, a leak of only one drop of water per second...works out to 2,700 gallons of water per year. Just a very small amount of water in your gas can cause huge problems. Think about this when you see a tanker transferring fuel into a service station bulk tank during a raging downpour.

[southbend]

A while back there was a thread here that had a bunch of period photos. I haven't taken the time to find the link. Sorry. One of the photos was of a gas station. It was taken in the mid-1930s. Guess what they were advertising? Alcohol-blended fuel---ethanol. Gave me second thoughts about not using ethanol, at least in the '35.

[Buzzard]

I have been using Gunk Lead Substitute (M5012c) for quite some time in all my older motors as well as chainsaws, generators etc. I can only assume that it may be partly responsible for my lack of fuel related problems as some of my units are much older military gen sets and vehicles (Weasel, US6, SUMB etc). Most everything sits for six months while we wait out winter and I usually have very little difficulty returning everything back into service. We can purchase marked premium fuel WITHOUT ethanol from a bulk plant here in British Columbia, but you are not supposed to run it in road vehicles (boats, ATV's only etc) . In my road vehicles I keep stringent fuel mileage records and ethanol definitely reduces the fuel economy in everything I drive.

[53k]

I filled two six-gallon cans today with 100% gasoline at a Liberty station about 14 miles from me. Paid $3.79 rather than the $3.59 for 10% ethanol, but this gas is for my small engines which have been very unhappy with the ethanol-laced stuff. While I was filling the cans the man at the pumps behind said I should fill the car too. He was filling a Jeep Cherokee with real gasoline. He kept track of miles and he was getting significantly more miles per tankful, especially in highway driving. I had tried real gasoline in the car before and didn't seem to see any difference. However, I did go ahead and fill it with the 100% stuff. This time I'll make a more careful check.

[Tom Bredehoft]

I've been filling my '55 LC ('63 289) with Kroger's 89 octane for a year or so. It gets me 6% better mileage, and at $3.50 a gallon, that figures on a 23 cents a gallon savings.
The car had been sitting all unloved over winter, about 6 months. I got into it the other day, turned on the electric fuel pump and it slowed down (had pressure) in about 15 seconds. (yes, I have a return line, too). I hit the starter and it fired on the fourth cylinder up. When in regular use, (once weekly) it generally fires (without electric pump priming) on the first cylinder up. Far better than my electronic fuel injected modern car.
The WCFB was rebuilt by Dave Thibeault four years ago. Even with six months of sitting in the garage, my first fill up showed mileage slightly better than the two year average of 14.98 mpg. I can't find anything about modern gas to complain about other than the outrageous price.

[brokencookie]

He kept track of miles and he was getting significantly more miles per tankful, especially in highway driving..

Ethanol does not have the energy denisity of refined petroluem gasoline. It is common to lose up to 20 % of you mileage when using a 10 % ethanol blend. This is why Ethanol is not the wonderful fuel the tree huggers think it is. The gain is "lower" emissions is offset by the need to use more gas /mile.

[skyway]

Yup, and as an aside, here in St. Louis, MO, "regular" gas seems to have gone up .19 cents a gallon overnite; $3.40 to $3:59.
I know that some will say, "that's the free market", but I will continue to disbelieve! (especially until I see it drop by that same amount)

[brokencookie]

What your are seeing is probably the seasonal change in gasoline forumulation mandated by the EPA. The RVP ( Reid Vapor Pressure) limits drop from about 13 PSI to 9 PSI at this time of year. This means that refineries cannot use as much butane in the gasoline formulation and they have to use more expensive components. Butane is about 92 octane and is dirt cheap. At my refinery we have cut back butane addition from about 18% to 8% to reach the required target. Thus a sharp increase in gasoline prices. In late September the EPA relaxes the RVP restriction and Voila !! gasoline price drop, right after the "summer driving season".

Bruce

[brokencookie]

, "that's the free market",

Taint a free market as we think about it. It is a highly regulated market. The current US production of gasoline is closely matched to the demand. Gasoine is a fungible asset and moves between markets to generate the highest income. When you decide to protest BP gasoline and only buy Shell gasoline; BP's gasoline storage starts to fill up. Shell on the other hand is running out of gasoline. Solution, Shell buys BPs gasoline and puts it in their tanks. Net loss to the refiners, zip. In 1975 we had 285 refineries in the US, now we have 75 and none have been built in the last 40 years.


Things to chew on


Bruce