Sat morning thoughts:-)

[SN-60]

I have heard the same thing over and over and over about the forum. It is a bad representation of the true spirit of the club.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT.....and some folks REALLY need to 'lighten up' a little bit...life is TOO short guys!

[Gunslinger]

Let's get back to the subject of clone cars. As already said, they're fine as long as they're properly represented as such.

In principle I have no problem with clones. The problem...from my point of view...is down the road should the clone be owned by an unscrupulous person representing it as original. Then the car might be purchased by someone believing the car is something it isn't...and he's the one caught when he tries selling it and honestly believes it's the real deal.

Unfortunately the car hobby, like so many others, has its share of hucksters and those too trusting and don't do their due diligence.

Another issue I've observed is the number of clone cars has reduced the number of otherwise good, restorable cars that aren't factory equipped with hi-po engines. This has the effect of driving up the costs of the hobby. Say one has a nice Barracuda E-body with a slant-6 or small v8 engine. Outside of the costs of a hemi or 440 big block and associated goodies it pretty much costs the same to rebuild the car. But...for roughly the same reconstruction costs, which would make that car more valuable in the free market? The same could be said for Chevelles, Mustangs or other contemporary cars. It's common knowledge among Corvette people that there's quite likely far more big-block Vettes out there now than ever rolled out of the old St. Louis Corvette plant.

Again...what someone does with their car and their money is fine with me...I don't have to approve and don't care whether they approve of what I've done with my car. There's simply the potential for skulduggery which may happen down the road.

[Flashback]

" As already said, they're fine as long as they're properly represented"

Now, I agree with that!!!!! Wait till you see my copo 53. LOL

[48skyliner]

As I read these comments and opinions on this thread and similar threads, I ask myself "Why do people buy old cars?" I think they all buy them for the same basic reason - they think they will get some sort of satisfaction from owning them. I would suggest that one or more of the following three categories apply to most people:
1. They appreciate the aesthetics of the car, either the styling or the quality of the bodywork, interior restoration, paint and chrome work - they like the way it looks.
2. They think it is a part of automobile history, or it is just like the one grandpa used to drive. These people are generally more concerned with "IT IS ALL ORIGINAL".
3. They think it is a good investment. Some of these people are obsessed with the Holy Grail of automobilia - "MATCHING NUMBERS". I think these people are most influential in driving the prices up to such outrageous levels on certain cars. (Consider that there were less than 500 Duesenberg Model J, only 39 Ferrari 250 GTO, less than 1,000 AC Cobras and over 1.5 million 57 Chevys built.)

If we consider these various motivations for ownership, it is perhaps easier to be tolerant of different points of view.

[jimmijim8]

Folks are sometimes mezmerized upon their first glance of a subjected Stude Avanti, C-K, convertible,truck,sedan, bullet nose, in part because of all of the propagandatation they have been subjected to through out the years about what is revered in the collector car hobby. There just ain't enough Studes to quench the demand. Well not exactly. A 57 Chebby does nothing for me but to a lot of folks they are the epitome of the cool factor. SDC didn't invent cool. Studebaker Corp did. Whatever drive train you have in second to the styling factor. cheers jimmijim

[Dan Timberlake]

Some owners of beautifully finished AC Cobra kit cars festooned with all the proper badges place a placard saying "1964 AC Cobra" or somesuch. More than once when asked if it is a "real" Cobra the reply has been "yes" . Yet a slightly closer peek without even kneeling on the ground reveals a simple rectangular tubing ladder frame and a solid rear axle with teeny drum brakes and 4 lug wheels. We humans are curious (strange) creatures.

[Bob Andrews]

Hey Bob, maybe You should think on this quote...."A critic is a man created to praise greater men than himself, but he is never able to find them" (Le Gallienne)..Does this shoe fit Mr. Andrews?

God bless you, Ed. Thanks for making my point exactly for me LOL

[SN-60]

God bless you, Ed. Thanks for making my point exactly for me LOL

Glad the 'SHOE' fits You Mr. Andrews...we all knew that it would!

[SN-60]

While watching an episode of 'Chasing Classic Cars' last night, I was reminded of this thread. Wayne was appraising a 1957 Jeep that was to be auctioned. He was 'hired' by the two Gents who run the Squaw Valley Resort in California. They wanted to purchase the Jeep to transport their guests. Wayne liked this vehicle (expected to sell for 50-70K)...UNTIL He looked at the serial number plate, and then the 'alarms' went off in his head. The plate was fastened to the Jeep's 'A' pillar by two screws as opposed to being spot welded. (ala Studebaker) Wayne also felt that the plate was a reproduction. The restorer of this Jeep seemed evasive to Wayne's questions. Wayne pointed out that the vehicle possibly couldn't be registered, at least not in California, if the RMV questioned this plate....and advised against the purchase. The two Gents from Squaw Valley finally did end up buying the Jeep after Wayne spotted the Jeep's owner (not the restorer) whom He knew very well. The owner of the Jeep guaranteed Wayne He would buy the vehicle back if it couldn't be registered, so with that understanding the sale went through.
So, to the few people on this forum who have suggested that 'Repop' VIN plates are 'NO BIG DEAL', I feel they should seriously consider what creating them, even with the best intentions, can lead to 'Down The Road'!

[wittsend]

Years ago when I was searching for a Sunbeam Tiger I thought, 'why not just buy an Alpine and drop a 302 SBF in it.' Economically it seemed to make sense. Eventually I bought a real Tiger and became active in the community. It was THEN that I found out how particular they are about real Tigers VS Alpines with V-8 conversions (Algers). Sunbeam used no body/frame ID stampings. Only removable plates. So, the opportunity sits there waiting for a drill and pop rivet.

There were 7,000+ real Tigers manufactured. Frequently people would take a rusted out Tiger and transfer the parts to an Alpine. The real issue became when people would try and pass off (or sell) one of these cars as a real Tiger. Tiger related websites would post these imposters in a "most wanted" type of display. The seller, or selling agent would be contacted and told of the misrepresentation with the expectation that it be changed. They are very vigilant in protecting the Tiger pedigree. There is actually a certification process (TAC) where they verify a Tiger to be original. What they don't do is state that a car is not a Tiger. Rather they state that a car has enough evidence to certify originality and leave it at that.

The Tiger community is not against putting a V-8 in an Alpine. Frankly some of those cars far exceed an original Tiger in many ways. But they are against a car being represented as a Tiger when from its origins, it isn't. And, yes, should a Tiger become wrecked and Alpine body parts necessary for repair there is always debate about when a real Tiger becomes and Alger (but drivable) or sits as a crumpled heap, - but still a real Tiger. Usually the powers that be just don't chime in when the question comes up.

[Studedude]

God bless you, Ed. Thanks for making my point exactly for me LOL

Glad the 'SHOE' fits You Mr. Andrews...we all knew that it would!

Are you guys brothers??

[SN-60]

Are you guys brothers??

Of Course!.............Bob & Ed Caso!