Here's a point to ponder.

[BobPalma]

Actually, Bob, I think the Avanti comes close to proving the point you are making. True, it was not a low-price sporty car. However, it was a terrific image-builder that had the potential to make Studebaker money while helping derail the company's stodgy image.

But the product wasn't available when it needed to be available.

To wit: The Avanti entered a profitable arena, a market served by these cars, with their 1963 reported production numbers rounded to the nearest thousand (not including convertibles where applicable, since the Avanti wasn't offered as a convertible):

Ford Thunderbird: 57,000
Buick Riviera: 40,000
Pontiac Grand Prix: 73,000
Chrysler 300: 10,000
Chevrolet Corvette Sting-Ray: 11,000

That's a market of roughly 191,000 cars, into which another 3,834 1963 Avantis were added. How many more Avantis could have been sold in that market, with attendant profit and image for Studebaker, had they been available?

This thread has pointed out how many people bought Mustangs because they were generally available on introduction day. Sure, the dealers got list or better for those cars, and the lines and lists became long for additional production, but they did get 'em cranked out in a more-or-less timely manner, something Studebaker just couldn't get going with the Avanti.

Meanwhile, the up-scale customer to whom the Avanti was targeted was not used to being put off with repeated delivery delays and promises, so we have heard from time to time how many Avanti orders were cancelled by potential customers...after all, "Dr. Black's new Riviera looks pretty nice down at the country club, and since that hick Studebaker dealer just put me off another three weeks on the Avanti I ordered two months ago..." [V]

So, Bob, while the Avanti and Mustang weren't competitors, I believe the Avanti validates your postulation: Studebaker was just barely viable enough to bring to market a car with the potential "wow" of the Mustang...and in fact did, in the Avanti. That the Avanti didn't do what Sherwood Egbert hoped it could or would may be credited to the same ambitious production gremlins that had haunted Preston Tucker only 15 years earlier, to put it in historical perspective. [:0] BP

[BobPalma]

Actually, Bob, I think the Avanti comes close to proving the point you are making. True, it was not a low-price sporty car. However, it was a terrific image-builder that had the potential to make Studebaker money while helping derail the company's stodgy image.

But the product wasn't available when it needed to be available.

To wit: The Avanti entered a profitable arena, a market served by these cars, with their 1963 reported production numbers rounded to the nearest thousand (not including convertibles where applicable, since the Avanti wasn't offered as a convertible):

Ford Thunderbird: 57,000
Buick Riviera: 40,000
Pontiac Grand Prix: 73,000
Chrysler 300: 10,000
Chevrolet Corvette Sting-Ray: 11,000

That's a market of roughly 191,000 cars, into which another 3,834 1963 Avantis were added. How many more Avantis could have been sold in that market, with attendant profit and image for Studebaker, had they been available?

This thread has pointed out how many people bought Mustangs because they were generally available on introduction day. Sure, the dealers got list or better for those cars, and the lines and lists became long for additional production, but they did get 'em cranked out in a more-or-less timely manner, something Studebaker just couldn't get going with the Avanti.

Meanwhile, the up-scale customer to whom the Avanti was targeted was not used to being put off with repeated delivery delays and promises, so we have heard from time to time how many Avanti orders were cancelled by potential customers...after all, "Dr. Black's new Riviera looks pretty nice down at the country club, and since that hick Studebaker dealer just put me off another three weeks on the Avanti I ordered two months ago..." [V]

So, Bob, while the Avanti and Mustang weren't competitors, I believe the Avanti validates your postulation: Studebaker was just barely viable enough to bring to market a car with the potential "wow" of the Mustang...and in fact did, in the Avanti. That the Avanti didn't do what Sherwood Egbert hoped it could or would may be credited to the same ambitious production gremlins that had haunted Preston Tucker only 15 years earlier, to put it in historical perspective. [:0] BP

[lstude]

I think that in the spring of 64 when the Mustang came out, most people thought Studebaker was already dead, it just hadn't been buried. If they had been able to bring out a car like the Mustang, it might have brought them back to life, but we will never know.

If people stayed away in droves in 64, then they ran away in droves in 65. Look at these sales figures for the state of Virginia and the city of Richmond. Studebaker was a non-player in the market by then...selling a total of 256 cars in the state of Virginia in 1965.





Leonard Shepherd

http://leonardshepherd.com/

[lstude]

I think that in the spring of 64 when the Mustang came out, most people thought Studebaker was already dead, it just hadn't been buried. If they had been able to bring out a car like the Mustang, it might have brought them back to life, but we will never know.

If people stayed away in droves in 64, then they ran away in droves in 65. Look at these sales figures for the state of Virginia and the city of Richmond. Studebaker was a non-player in the market by then...selling a total of 256 cars in the state of Virginia in 1965.





Leonard Shepherd

http://leonardshepherd.com/

[hank63]

I think I read somewhere that the mustang success caught Ford by surprise as well. The first year's production exceeded their original plan by 2 or 3 times. That would have been hectic times, but they managed one way or another.
/H

[hank63]

I think I read somewhere that the mustang success caught Ford by surprise as well. The first year's production exceeded their original plan by 2 or 3 times. That would have been hectic times, but they managed one way or another.
/H

[bonehead007]

No matter what Studebaker decided to build, upper mgmnt would still have tried to find a way to bury the car division. The Avanti was supposed to be a big seller and help save the company. Look at all of the sales lost due to poor quality and management decisions...

[bonehead007]

No matter what Studebaker decided to build, upper mgmnt would still have tried to find a way to bury the car division. The Avanti was supposed to be a big seller and help save the company. Look at all of the sales lost due to poor quality and management decisions...

[JBOYLE]

quote:Originally posted by Guido

Bob Palma is the only one that has really addressed the situation here, economies of scale.

Let me give myself some credit...if no one else will

Please notice item two in my post...
"Would the factory be able to meed demand?".
With one main factory, even if they had a Mustang type hit, there is no way they could have built 400,000+ of them the way Ford did in 64-65.


Bob is correct about the Avanti image...and to restate a point others have made...it was not a Mustang competitor in price. My early
(January production) 1963 Avanti had a list price of $5800.
That's about double what you could buy a decent Mustang for 15 months later.



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

[JBOYLE]

quote:Originally posted by Guido

Bob Palma is the only one that has really addressed the situation here, economies of scale.

Let me give myself some credit...if no one else will

Please notice item two in my post...
"Would the factory be able to meed demand?".
With one main factory, even if they had a Mustang type hit, there is no way they could have built 400,000+ of them the way Ford did in 64-65.


Bob is correct about the Avanti image...and to restate a point others have made...it was not a Mustang competitor in price. My early
(January production) 1963 Avanti had a list price of $5800.
That's about double what you could buy a decent Mustang for 15 months later.



63 Avanti R1 2788
1914 Stutz Bearcat
(George Barris replica)

Washington State

[Guido]

Leonard,

A couple of observations on your sales statistics:

* I find it odd that there is no mention of Jeep, unless they considered them to be trucks rather than cars (which could explain why Scouts and IH are not listed). I suspect there were a fair number of Wagoneers sold during those years.

* Notice that there is not a single Japanese car maker listed in the foreign sales figures.

Gary

[Guido]

Leonard,

A couple of observations on your sales statistics:

* I find it odd that there is no mention of Jeep, unless they considered them to be trucks rather than cars (which could explain why Scouts and IH are not listed). I suspect there were a fair number of Wagoneers sold during those years.

* Notice that there is not a single Japanese car maker listed in the foreign sales figures.

Gary

[fmarshall]

My take on what would have happened is that Studebaker would have built the Mustang and Ford would have built the Avanti. Studebaker would have went out of business. And the Mustang would have survived.

Only, today, the Mustang would be built in Cancun on an Avanti Chassis.

And there would be 182 Avantis for every Mustang. Perhaps, that would be a better world. Because I would much rather see an Avanti coming down the road than another dime-a-dozen Mustang.

[fmarshall]

My take on what would have happened is that Studebaker would have built the Mustang and Ford would have built the Avanti. Studebaker would have went out of business. And the Mustang would have survived.

Only, today, the Mustang would be built in Cancun on an Avanti Chassis.

And there would be 182 Avantis for every Mustang. Perhaps, that would be a better world. Because I would much rather see an Avanti coming down the road than another dime-a-dozen Mustang.