How rare is a 63 R2 Avanti

[charley norton]

I'm just curious. My Avanti is only the second one I've ever seen. The first was when I was 5 (37 years ago). Thats any Avanti, much less an R2. It's kinda funny that no one around here has heard of them, especially since their making them in Villa Rica Ga. (an hours drive away). Or at least they were. I'm courious about that, too. But Studes in general are pretty scarce in the south. Did Studebaker do much Bus. in the South? I have no clue as to how much this cars worth except what folks are asking for them in Turning Wheels. I call my Avanti Maggies (my daughter) college fund. She's nine now, so I have nine years to talk her into a vocational school (just kidding).

63 R2 Avanti

[JDP]

With less than half the 4647 cars build being R2's, I'd guess less than 1000 left. Studebakers were pretty popular in South Bend, but even there, sales were dropping in the 60's. I recall when I bought a new 63 GT Hawk in South Bend, mt girl friend asked "Why did you but a Studebaker ? "
Avanti values are still soft, but R2's, are a bit stronger, even more so with a 4 speed.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

[wagone]

Charley: I too have a '63 R2 Avanti and I basically agree with JDP on numbers. Perhaps 35-40 percent of the production were R2 powered, which would be about 1600 to 1800 cars. If we assume 1000 to 1250 left today, they are fairly rare; and, since most were Power Shift automatics, the remaining 4-speeds (as mine also is)are likely no more than 300-400--it is anybody's guess, really. JDP commented on prices and so I will too. I bought mine two years ago and believe paid too much. It needed (needs) quite a bit of work and is a number three car (on the five point rating system). To my way of thinking (and reading the various price guides) a number three 4-speed R2 should be worth $14,000. I gave 10-15 percent more than that, so I suppose I'm not too badly hurt. I'd be interested to hear your read on values, or JDP's or anyone elses.
Wagone in Iowa

[JDP]

R2, 4 speeds in good condition are pretty strong lately. I think a condition 3 car should bring a bit more than 14K, perhaps as much as 17 or so if the paint and interior is nice. I sold a exceptional R1 for 18K two years ago, so nice cars bring good money. Just remember
"There is nothing more expensive than a cheap Avanti"

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

[charley norton]

Thanks for the input. How does the point scale work? I've heard about it but thats about it. This car is in near new condition. I replaced the headliner and had it painted, but otherwise is original. The radio was changed, but I have a original am\fm to go in it once I get it refurbished. I got a (wrecked) R2 with the deal, so I guess you could say I have 2 of them. I'd put in a picture if I knew how. I'm really proud of my stude and am so glad to finally meet some people to talk to about it. Thanks for everyones help and let me know if I become a nuisance because I have about a thousand questions.


63 R2 Avanti

[studeclunker]

Well charlie, they put up with me (at least up till now). And I'm pretty obnoxious (just ask my sister). [}] Mr Biggs seems to be really patient with my really dumb questions.[:I] So welcome to the crowd. By the way, NICE CAR!![8D]

Lotsa Larks!
Studeclunker
A.K.A: out2lunch

[studegary]

If it is a 1963 model, it wasn't originally built with an AM/FM radio. If you order the build sheet from the SNM, you will see how your car was originally equipped, where it was delivered to (if not factory stock), etc. What S/N is your car?

[JDP]

Point Scale:


1. EXCELLENT: This car has been restored to current maximum professional standards of quality in every area or is a perfect original with all parts operating and appearing as new. A 95 + point show car that is not driven.

2. FINE: Well restored or a combination of superior restoration and excellent original. Also an extremely well maintained original showing very minimal wear.

3. VERY GOOD: Completely operable original or "older restoration" showing wear. Also, a good amateur restoration, all presentable and serviceable inside and out. Plus, combinations of well-done restoration and good operable components, or a partially restored car with all parts necessary to complete it, and or NOS parts.

4. GOOD: A drivable vehicle needing no or only minor work to be functional. Also a deteriorated restoration or a very poor amateur restoration. All components may need restoration to be "Excellent", but the car is mostly usable as is.

5. RESTORABLE: Needs complete restoration of body, chassis, and interior. May or may not be running, but is not weathered, wrecked or stripped to being useful only for parts.

6. PARTS CAR: May or may not be running but is weathered, wrecked and/or stripped to the point of being useful only for parts.



Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

[Mike]

I understand there was an article in the Oct. '87 issue of "Turning Wheels" about Stude Avanti production #'s. I don't have a copy, myself. I'm told it says there were 1558 R2's, total. Of these, 1277 were '63, and 281 were '64.

If you:
Start with ser.# 1001 as the first.
Stop counting at R 5643, (the official last production Avanti).
Use the figure of 809 as the number of '64's.

Then:
There were 3834 '63's.

I realize other figures have been used. There's a chart at:
http://www.theavanti.com/Production.html ,
that lists the last serial # in Dec. '63 as 5647.
I've seen copies of build sheets for renumbered engineering cars, with post production numbers 5650 & 5651. Ser # 5653 is owned by the LeMay Museum; and is the highest serial # I've heard.
Mike M.

[charley norton]

Thanks JDP, I think I would be in the 2 category. My parts car being a 6-. The radio I have isn't original to the car, but original to a 63 model Stude (I think I was told a stationwagon). I was also told it was a pretty rare thing. The cover plate matches the opening and is the same dash color and knob configuration so it should fit. The belt inside is shot and it's been damp but it does turn on. I've been wanting to get the build sheet. I'll get the s\n number this evening.

63 R2 Avanti

[JDP]

I don't know your car, but most folks tend to rate their cars a bit higher on the point scale than they may belong. i.e. my old "Survivor" Avanti was a condition 2 car, scoring in the 380-390 range out of 400.
If you have a solid condition 2 R2 4speed, you're looking at a 22-27K car. Here's the before and after on my old car to give you a idea.

http://stude.com/avanti.htm

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

[new53]

I've never really been a fan of the wide range of interpretation in the point scale system. Here's my take on the points, and this is only my opinion/observation as an average non-professional classic car owner.

1. PERFECT: A trailer queen. The average person has never seen a 1 in person unless they've been to a museum. (and not every museum has #1 cars) If the car show has the word "Concours" then you'll probably see some #1 cars. Restoration shops that have a national reputation do #1 cars. These are in better shape than the average new car in the showroom.

2.ALMOST PERFECT: These are the cars that most people look at and say, "That's a #1 car". If you have the car professionaly restored at a good shop that says they do "show car" level restorations - you have a 2, maybe a 2+. Look at the auction lists and see the cars that they call 2+, and look at how may are listed as 1. Most people think that when they restore a car they have a #2 simply because it looks like new. My guess is that most of those are 2- or 3+. This is also the level of an original low milage car that's been kept very well. (a 1964 Avanti with 40,000 original miles, garage kept, clean, crisp, needs nothing, like JDP's car) This will win trophies at many car shows.

3. VERY NICE: This is the average restored car. This looks like it's been restored. If it's mostly original, and the restoration has included everything then maybe it's a 2-,3+. That's about the same if you have a restoration shop no a "non-show" level complete restoration. If it's a restoration that was not frame-off, but was done very well it's a 3,3+. That's also the level of an original car, higher milage, that's been kept very well, but shows minor aging.

4. NEEDS WORK: This is a car that works, and may not even look that bad, but needs a complete restoration. Most of the old cars that I see as daily drivers/working cars are rated 4+ or 3-. Depending on how much is there, how much is working, and how much work needs to be done, a car could be as high as 3-. This is a driveable vehicle, usually with lots of miles. To get this to a #2 will cost you about the same as buying a new car, which unfortunately is usually more than the car is worth. To get this to #1 will cost far more than the car is worth. (Unless you have a car Jay Leno would want)

5. PARTS/PROJECT CAR: This is a car that doesn't run, or generally can't even be used without significant work.

6. PILE O PARTS: This is a carcass sitting in a field, with most important parts still there.

That's the way I see the numbering in real life. I really don't worry about it. I own cars to use/enjoy them. If I was worried about keeping a #2+ I would feel awful about adding any wear and tear at all. I also have no idea how custom cars work into this, or even modified originals, but that's probably another rating sytem completely.

G. Howes

[charley norton]

My ser. no. #63r1987. I don't know, JDP. Maybe mine is a 3. It has a few little things that needs tweeking. I don't see much, though. It did get damaged in the left front back in the 60's, but I can't find any evidence of it other than the paint looked a little different there when I bought it. Thats why I had it painted. It has approx. 325000 verified miles. The guy I bought mine from had another one with around ten thousand miles on it .A guy in the Carolinas has that one. Anyway, its good to get some idea. I have a couple of pics. If you have a email address I can send them to, I would like an honest opinion and advice on how to get it there (#2).

63 R2 Avanti

[JDP]

My car was a high three when I got it, with some detailing, it scored a 392 at a zone meet. Here's some of what I did. Repainted under the hood,(engine and inner fender/firewall), painted and detailed the chassis, installed all the correct decals, carb return springs and hood latch springs painted the correct colors, intalled factory hose clamps, sandblasted and painted the wheels, installed the correct 6:70x15 bias ply tires, reproduction Prestolite battery, NOS alternator, rechromed the air cleaner and valve covers.
Basically, when done, it looked like a Avanti that was perhaps a year or so old. A few tiny flaws in the factory paint and less than perfect chassis since it was not a "frame off" The judges were kind to the car because it was pretty much as built.
I always define a condition 2 car as a car than you have to wash your hands and put on clean cloths before you work on it. Not qite a trailer queen, but not a car you would drive very much.

Studebaker On The Net http://stude.com
64 R2 4 speed Challenger (Plain Wrapper)
63 R2 4 speed GT Hawk
55 Speedster
50 2R 10 truck

[wagone]

Charley: I assume that you mean to say your '63 has 32,500 original miles, not 325,000 miles! A very nice condition car ('63 Avanti) with that few miles just might be able to be brought up to a number 2. On the other hand, 325,000 miles it would be most difficult to bring it up to a number 2. In my opinion any number of pictures seen over tne internet or in "the flesh" can not be rated as to condition--the actual car must be viewed "in the flesh" to accomplish an evaluation. I agree with JDP when he says that "most owners over value their cars"--human nature, I guess. The guy I bought mine from is reported to have said that his car was a strong number 2. But it is only now, after my spending $7,000 on it after purchase, an average number 3! I also agree with NEW53 when he says that MOST car nuts NEVER see a number one car unless in a very upscale museum or an exclusive Concours d' elegance--Peeble Beach or two or three other venues in the US are the only shows you will see a number one car. That said, most of us can enjoy our cars without going to that much of an extreme. Charley, stay in touch; if you wear out your welcome then mine will be gone too (for same reason) and I hope that doesn't happen--to either of us. I know the only way I learn is by asking questions--you just sometimes need to evaluate the source of the answer and the answer as it relates to your knowledge and experience.
Wagone in Iowa.