Thirteen Historical R3 Avantis Photos

[rcrall]

R1025

rcrall - Greetings from Vermont . . . on another single-digit temp day in paradise.

I think I read somewhere that, when preparing the Hot Rod Magazine Avanti, instead of boring the engine from 289 to 299, Andy Granatelli stroked it to 299. The thing I read said that Andy wanted that Avanti to really perform, and stroking it to 299 created more torque than boring. With more torque, the magazine car would do better in the 0-60 and 1/4 mile magazine tests. I think I also read that none of the other R3s could match the acceleration of the Hot Rod Magazine car.

Is that the car you have? I wondered if you have any info that would shed light on whether this story is true?

Also, if stroking gave the 299 more torque, why weren't the rest of the R3 engines stroked instead of bored? I would imagine either production difficulty or cost may have been an issue, but that is just a wild guess??

R1025 is the HRM road test car and other than color and some miles is as it was in 1963.
As a general rule, stroking produces more torque, boring produces more HP. Longer stroke also tends to limit RPM, however; this engine was run to 8k RPM by Andy G.

Regarding the truth of the story, I have spoken numerous times to Vince G. and had one long conversation with Andy G regarding the car and both verified that what you heard was accurate.

There is a 4 page article in this month's AOAI magazine that provides considerable information regarding R1025's history.

[rcrall]

This is an apocryphal story which continues to make the rounds here year after year. Until one can supply a link to a reliable source where the rest of us can read up on it, the stroker allegation does not agree with anything I've read in any magazine accounts from that time period.

My own source is second hand, but he was there at the time and states the 299" was just the common .060" overbore.

Because despite bench racing legend, that's not really how it works. In any case, to stroke from 3.625" to 3.75" to get to 299" would require an expensive welded crankshaft and would also require custom pistons. Since the cost for the stroker would be twice as much as the overbore and the suggestion it would make more horsepower is not substantiated by any DynoSim programs or real world experience, it's unlikely to have occurred.

We've had unlikely things proven true, but this one still awaits verification.

jack vines

R1025 was a one-off that Paxton built for Andy to drag race and to be loaned to magazines to road test. I do have the invoice copy selling the car to Paxton and production papers referencing Granatelli. It cost a lot to add very little performance but Andy wanted to beat Hemi's with it and was able to do it if he had 1/2 mile to do it. Riverside had a 1/2 mile drag strip at the time and Andy repeatedly beat 426 Hemi's there.

This months AOAI magazine has a 4 page article on R1025

[rcrall]

I thought the 299 cu in engine from the Hot Rod magazine test car is still around. Seems like the truth behind this story would be known.

I agree it sounds a little far-fetched that anyone would go to such lengths to achieve 10 more cubic inches when a simple bore job would do the trick.

The June 1963 issue of Hot Rod Magazine wrote a positive article "Stude's Hottest! - Avanti R-3" The car was prepared so magazines would be impressed with the car's acceleration. Magazines were unlikely to find a place where a top speed run could be done, but did comment about 1/4 mile times. Andy wanted to beat 426 Hemi's with an Avanti. The .060 over engine fell a little short. This was a one off that likely gave up some top speed to accelerate just a little better. Given 1/2 mile Andy could beat the Hemi and Riverside had a 1/2 mile drag strip back then.

[PackardV8]

As a general rule, stroking produces more torque, boring produces more HP. Longer stroke also tends to limit RPM, .

Going to have to disagree on the theory given above. No matter how many times incorrect information is repeated, it's still incorrect. Volumetric efficiency doesn't relate to bore or stroke.

There’s a myth out there that stroking is more effective at increasing torque than boring out. The rationale is that with longer stroke, the piston has more lever arm on the crank, ergo more torque. But if you increase bore you get exactly the same effect. In both cases, you increase displacement. The torque you get is force times lever arm, and force is pressure times area. In both cases pressure is same (it depends on basic thermodynamics), so the effect is basically area times stroke (which is displacement). In stroked case, area is same, but stroke is larger. In bored case, stroke is same but area is larger. Works out to exactly the same provided in both cases the displacement increase is same.

Run a dyno simulation or an actual dyno test of a real engine. Changing bore or stroke produces the same horsepower from the same cubic inches. The idea that a longer stroke 299" Studebaker V8 would produce more torque than a larger bore 299" will not be proven true.

jack vines

[t walgamuth]

Going to have to disagree on the theory given above. No matter how many times incorrect information is repeated, it's still incorrect. Volumetric efficiency doesn't relate to bore or stroke.
Run a dyno simulation or an actual dyno test of a real engine. Changing bore or stroke produces the same horsepower from the same cubic inches. The idea that a longer stroke 299" Studebaker V8 would produce more torque than a larger bore 299" will not be proven true.

jack vines

Sounds like you have done it?

[PackardV8]

Sounds like you have done it?

A small block Chevy 383" (4.030 x 3.75") and a 380" (4.155" x 3.48") dyno tested within one lbs/ft of torque when using the same cam and heads.

jack vines

[jts359]

I'm pretty sure there were no 426 Hemi's in 1963 , The 426 Max wedge is another story , Ed

[PackardV8]

I'm pretty sure there were no 426 Hemi's in 1963 , The 426 Max wedge is another story , Ed

For true. Here's the Hot Rod Magazine R3 Road Test:

Out first outing with the R3 was at a drag meet using the back stretch of the Riverside International Raceway. The sponsoring Southern California Timing Association conducts occasional 1/2-mile drags on this long stretch. We had the prototype 299-inch R3 for this meet and a 4.09 rear axle ratio. Regular 6.70 x 15 street tires were fitted. The transmission was Studebaker's automatic made by Borg-Warner with ratios of 2.40, 1.47 and 1:1. On our first run, we found that the Avanti would not take off from the line in sensational fashion due to the relatively small displacement and the fact that blower boost does not really come on strong until the engine reaches about 3000 rpm. No matter how we tried driving the car, starts were slow. But, once the engine got above 3000 rpm, it started to move and felt very strong. We made the 1-2 shift at 6200 but engine acceleration was so rapid that the tach touched 7000 just as the automatic shifted. Again, the 2-3 shift was made at 6200 and this time the action was quicker with the tach reaching about 6500. At the end of the half-mile, the tach showed 6700. We made several runs during the day, changed to larger street tires, changed plugs and tried several driving styles. The best results were 128.94 mph and 21.30 seconds elapsed time. SCTA uses only speed for their half-mile records and we discovered that the Avanti had raised the class record by almost 6 mph. As a comparative figure, the hottest Super Stocker time recorded in the half was 136 mph by a 426 Plymouth.

jack vines

[Jessie J.]

With a Factory budget and tasked with Studebaker's Performance engine development, it is not inconceivable that the Granatelli's seeking a bit more would assemble a test mule based on a commonly accepted theory.
Whether the theory was right or wrong, they managed to produce incredible results.

As far as spending money, has it ever been determined whether they moved the valve guides further apart on those initial 'highly reworked' R-2 becomes "R-3" cylinder heads?
It would be interesting to closely examine Granetelli's work on the "R-3" engine of (63R-1025)
Highly unlikely that the Granatelli's had DynoSim programs to go by. Far more likely 'seat of the pants' and E.T. and Speed numbers.

[Jessie J.]

A few minutes with a spark plug wrench and a stiff piece of wire could verify the stroke.
Is it possible that Andy and Vince were doing a bit of 'bench racing'? Only one way to know.

[jnormanh]

I was a college student in Jackson, MS when the R3 was on the lot for sale. Of course neither we nor the dealer had any way to know that so few would be built.

A friend and I pretended to be potential buyers, and took it for a test ride. We'd run it up against the brakes, sidestep the brake pedal and see how far it would spin the tires.

A few weeks later we took a FI Corvette for a similar test ride. Rev it to 5000, sidestep the clutch.

The Avanti would spin the tires. The Corvette would melt them.

Sounds like heresy today. But they were "just" cars. And it was fun.

[Alan]

Those Jackson dealers were very trusting. In 63 I went to Keys Motors on Lankershim Blvd. in North Hollywood. They had a white R1 in their show room. It was $5,500. When I asked for a test ride, they said that the car was ordered by and waiting on the customer to pick it up. I told him it was alright if I am going to spend $5,500 on a car, it will be a Cadillac.

[rcrall]

R1025

For true. Here's the Hot Rod Magazine R3 Road Test:jack vines

Jack,

I do not dispute your information, however; roll back to the early 60's, My comments are an attempt to refer to what was accepted knowledge of the time. Bigger is better, and the more fuel you burn the more horsepower you create, bore -> HP, Stroke -> torque. 426 Hemi's were just being delivered about the time the HRM Road Test was being published. Not sure what Andy was referring to when he said 426's, assumed Hemi, but could have been wedge's.

That said, I have no axe to grind, and am impressed by your vernacular. More expected from a Packard owner than a Studebaker owner. Am I correct in thinking that you live in the New England area? If so would look forward to an evening where overstuffed furniture, a fireplace and some great spirits could lead to some relaxed conversation. I have read your posts for years and am impressed by your knowledge.

I have owned R1025 since the late 60's, and have had multiple conversations with the Granatelli's about it. The article in the current AOAI issue came about because John Hull called me some time ago asking if I owned R1025. He was doing research for a possible new book relating to the first Avanti's. Vince Granatelli told him that to be comprehensive he needed to look past the first 10 and include R1025 as it was the car Paxton used to develop the R3's. John called me inquiring about my Avanti. When It was determined that R1025 was in fact mine and parked out back in my hanger we began a long conversation. Information that I forwarded to him eventually evolved to become the article that is in the current AOAI publication. John's conversations with the Studebaker museum eventually led to the location of the production documentation that noted that R1025 was for A Granatelli.

I agree with everyone that states that there were only 9 FACTORY PRODUCTION R3's. That said, the cars that made records at Bonneville, the Hot Rod Magazine and other R3 Road Tests and articles, and the Sherwood Egbert R3 were all cars produced before the first FACTORY PRODUCTION R3 was ever produced, therefore; there are a few other FACTORY (albeit non production) R3's that do exist, in fact by the time the first "FACTORY PRODUCTION R3" was produced the curtain was coming down on South Bend production and to the best of my knowledge none of the 9 "FACTORY PRODUCTION R3s" had any significant role regarding Studebaker's reputation as being a manufacturer of high performance vehicles, that ship had already sailed.

Early R3s, sometimes referred to as "A" engines (299cid) were followed by the 304.5cid "B" engines. Many of the records and much of the publication about R3's were cars with "A" engines. My car, per Paxton is an R3. That said, it is probably the most unique of all of the R3's. I have no desire to defame it's producers as I respect their intentions and capabilities, however; when the car was produced, cheating was not unheard of. R1025 was produced to allow Studebaker to promote it's new performance vehicle in the best way that the team at Paxton could, and some minor deviations from future production engines was probably not beyond the scope of the project. I understand that it was produced so Andy could beat "426's" in drag races and to have a car that could be given to the press to test that would demonstrate that Studebaker was a manufacturer of performance vehicles.

Love to meet you some time Jack. My farm is not too far from Kennybunkport Me.

Ron

[studegary]

"Am I correct in thinking that you live in the New England area? If so would look forward to an evening where overstuffed furniture, a fireplace and some great spirits could lead to some relaxed conversation. I have read your posts for years and am impressed by your knowledge."
If you have been reading Jack's posts for years, I am surprised that you haven't noticed his address with every post as; "Spokane, WA, USA".

[PackardV8]

Love to meet you some time Jack. My farm is not too far from Kennybunkport Me.

Ron

Greetings, Ron,

Thanks for the kind invitation and who knows, it could happen. Back when I traveled on business, I was in ME twice a year; lovely state.

jack