Overheating Issues

[altair]

There are many posts about over heating, vapor lock etc. Some members install electric fans sometimes two, return fuel lines clothes pegs, non ethanol gas and a host of other issues relating to over heating. I feel that the most important thing is that the block is clean and free of all debris. I have three original 259 engines and the blocks are full of crud, one engine I had dismantled removed the plugs and while hanging on a chain block from a tripod I used a garden hose with a 1/4" pipe and a wire probe and it took the best part of two days to thoroughly clean the block. I did this in the hot sun and let the
block dry then finished the job off with compressed air, the cloud of rust dust was massive. Fortunately the radiator was clean: to note this 259 is installed in to a 1954 sedan with an original 6 cylinder also with the original radiator. With the hose off the bottom a garden hose can run full and not back up. When assembled a 160* thermostat was installed and it rarely goes over that maybe 170*-175* idling in 100* temperatures. The timing is set at 4* BTDC static, carburetor adjusted all parts cleaned and confirmed, heat riser functioning. Starts smartly on 6 volts and runs on high speed idle for 1-2 minutes then kicks down normally. It will idle up to 160* and hold there. If a block is clean, radiator clean, heat riser functioning, timing set to 4* static and mixture in the middle (not lean) and the vacuum advance is functioning correctly there will be no over heating nor "vapor lock". What is frequently labelled "vapor lock" is fuel boiling in the carburetor and over fueling the engine. Fuel will not boil in the fuel lines. When the engine is flooded under these conditions after 15-20 minutes the excess fuel will evaporate and all is well again, this may repeat and it may not. Pouring water on the fuel lines, placing clothes pegs, return fuel lines, electric fuel pumps, spacers under the carburetor will not cure anything if the block is dirty, heat riser is not functioning, timing is out, radiator clogged and the vacuum advance is not functioning.

[Bud]

Running hot is a problem with all older engines if the cooling system is not properly maintained. I don't know how many times over the years I have had cars come in with overheating issues where the owner has installed extra fans, return lines carburetor spacers to try to band aid overheating and hard starting problems caused by the heat. Usually flushing out the block, getting the radiator cleaned out, servicing the distributor and adjusting the timing correctly will solve the problem. I drive my Studebakers regularly with 180 degree thermostats, during the summer here in northwest Arizona and have no problem with the engines running hot even when the air temperature is above 100 degrees. I'm running hot with no AC but the engine coolant temperature never goes above maybe 185. Bud

[Bud]

Running hot is a problem with all older engines if the cooling system is not properly maintained. I don't know how many times over the years I have had cars come in with overheating issues where the owner has installed extra fans, return lines carburetor spacers to try to band aid overheating and hard starting problems caused by the heat. Usually flushing out the block, getting the radiator cleaned out, servicing the distributor and adjusting the timing correctly will solve the problem. I drive my Studebakers regularly with 180 degree thermostats, during the summer here in northwest Arizona and have no problem with the engines running hot even when the air temperature is above 100 degrees. I'm running hot with no AC but the engine coolant temperature never goes above maybe 185. Bud

[JoeHall]

Google says the highest temps in the hottest part of BC occur in July-August, and average is 83-85F. I googled MA in the USA a few days ago, and it's not much hotter there either. OTOH, Google says average temps in Palm Springs are above 100, from 1-June to 30-September, and above 90 from 1-May to 31 October. So there's that. Suffice to say, any Stude owner living in northern USA or Canada, and experiencing overheating, should not even consider taking it to the desert southwest USA. Also, anyone who states, matter of factly, that fuel cannot vaporize in the lines simply has no experience in severe hot weather. When an in-line electric fuel pump begins chattering, as if pumping air, that's a strong indication it is pumping fuel vapor, and not liquid fuel. I have experienced that several times when engine temps exceeded 225, idling, and stuck at a standstill.

As for a dirty water jackets, once cleaned, even if 40 years ago, if modern coolants are then consistently used, they NEVER get anywhere near that dirty again. Of course it's a good idea to clean the block again, during a rebuild, but there will never again be the amount of crud in the water jackets, nor in the oil passages as was accumulated. But if in doubt clean them out, especially since apparently there's still a lot of motors that have never been rebuilt, or even had the freeze plugs replaced. I believe the crud in the water jackets came from 1950s - 60s vintage antifreeze, and water - which was often exclusively used for three seasons each year. I blame leaded gas and non detergent oil for the oil passages.

[JoeHall]

As for modern versus classic cars overheating, I recently Googled the "AVOID OVERHEATING - TURN OFF AC THE NEXT xx MILES I mentioned in another recent thread. Turns out, per a 2022 forum thread I found elsewhere, there are still several of those signs in California. Posters argued whether they were still necessary with modern cars, and several others argued back, saying they've seen plenty of modern cars overheat on those long upgrades in hot weather. I haven't driven up Morongo Grade (where the sign I mentioned is) recently, but would not be surprised to see modern cars still overheating there. I surmise the folks in that thread arguing against the signs were probably from somewhere else in USA or Canada. Simply cannot get their minds around the severe heat factor.

[rockne10]

I believe the crud in the water jackets came from 1950s - 60s vintage antifreeze, and water ...

The majority of the "crud" is casting sand and sprues that were never fully cleaned out at the foundry, especially near the rear cylinders.
It's still a bear to chisel out, even when accessed from every possible orifice.
Even after my engine was "cooked" for a rebuild I spent hours chiseling around the cylinder walls.

[skyway]

X2 on the sand & wires!
Long needle-nose pliers are my go to for the wires, & coat hangers for the crud.

[Rafe Hollister]

My 56 259 normally runs just fine. (I'm in coastal NorCal so air temps get over 80 for a few minutes maybe 3 days a year.) But every once in a while, for no apparent reason it will go from 180 to over 200. I slow down, speed up, use lower gear, stop for a bit... not sure if any of this actually helps, but then the temp will come back to 180 again. When changing a radiator hose, I noticed the spout the hose slips over was 1/3 blocked by rust or hardened sediment. This was very scary to me, but I resolved the issue with a technique that I learned in childhood... denial! Now this post has pulled me back to reality.
Is the 1/3 blockage fixable? Does my whole inside of block look like that? Can I flush my block without pulling the engine? Should I replace my freeze plugs? Is there a muriatic acid type chemical flush? Maybe CLR? Perhaps my thermostat gets blocked, then clears out?
Please explain what I might do. Do not assume I know very much in giving your advice. Please explain in a way I can understand... maybe use crayons.
Rafe Hollister

[Blue 15G]

Before you remove the freeze plugs to clean the block, do a thorough reverse flushing job. A huge amount of rusty water and crud will come out by doing this. I guess I've just been lucky, but in 50 years of messing with old cars I've never had to remove freeze plugs and clean out the cooling passages. After the reverse flushing process my cars never had an overheating problem.

I'm not denying that the freeze plugs need to be removed in many cases, but why not try the less intense way first?

[Flashback]

I Second the thought The engine in my 53, came from a 45,000 mile, 63 Avanti. Before I put it in, I did all the things mentioned, including blocking the intake exhaust ports. Had a staggered tube aluminum radiator built. Put a fuel return line and pressure regulator. All, with the hope it wouldn't run hot and vapor lock. I removed all the freeze plugs, and used a pressure washer. I was amazed, at the MUD and debri that came out! And, I think you are right, i probably could have cleaned the block and heads , and been safe. Mine runs a little "TOO COOL" most of the time.

[r1lark]

I removed all the freeze plugs, and used a pressure washer. I was amazed, at the MUD and debri that came out!

Pulling all the core plugs and about an hour with a pressure washer is what I do to every Stude engine. Note that I haven't done this with the engine still in the car tho..........that might be a little tough and messy, especially without a lift. But all my Stude engines needed several other things done that made pulling them out of the car a time saver (resealing them, cleaning/painting them, etc). The pressure washer will get the inside of the blocks squeaky clean.

[altair]

These engines inherently rust inside because of the open cooling system, every time an engine cools down it sucks in some air to react against the cast iron causing oxidation ie rust/crud. I don't know when closed systems were introduced but that eliminated the oxidation problem. Some members have designed closed systems for their cars to eliminate the oxidation problem. I am thinking of making one but haven't yet. Again, with a clean block and radiator, timing set at 4* BTDC static, functioning heat riser, carb adjusted and a functioning vacuum advance and a factory recommended thermostat usually 160* - 180* there will be no over heating or "vapor lock". High performance fan systems, electric fuel pumps, return line setups, close pegs, silver paper and a host of other remedies to counter overheating and "vapor lock" are not necessary. Because our engines do sit for long periods of time an electric fuel pump is handy for priming, I still use a plastic bottle to save the starter. Even after sitting for weeks it will start without priming, but with excessive cranking. Just a dribble of fuel from a plastic bottle and it starts immediately. Plumbing and wiring in an electric fuel pump is a handy device for priming but I would keep it separate from the factory setup. If I start my engine every day it is immediate, the longer it sits the longer it takes to start, if a week or more it needs priming.

[Mark L]

Several years ago I flushed the 259 in the Lark I sold a few months ago. I removed the core plugs at the lower back of the block, one each left and right side, just above the oil pan. There was so mutch sludge that I had to use a pick to get any old coolant to come out. I then used a garden hose and spayer to blast water into the water jackets, then let it drain out. I did this multiple times until the water came out (mostly) clear. I then flushed water down from the top through the thermostat housing. I did not remove the freeze plugs.

I did all this in my driveway with the car on jack stands, lying on my back. I'm glad the weather was hot because it was a cold, wet, sticky mess.

If you do it this way, I recommend you wear safety glasses and keep your mouth closed.

[StudeRich]

That has been exactly my experience also David (Post # 12) with MANY post-war Studes.

For that condition about the oxidization of coolant, I simply buy the Coolant Overflow Tanks at Auto Parts Stores that must use a sealed Cap, and a lot less oxygen gets into the Coolant.

Although we are both fortunate to live in the Pacific Northwest, which is like most Northerly climates, not like the Desert of Southern States.

When I lived in Southern Calif. Pre-2000, it Very rarely would get beyond 80 degrees most of the time, and in coastal areas 70F and I used the same technique, 50/50 Prestone and Distilled Water, a scraped clean Block of all sand, wire and rust, Core Plugs all OUT and replaced with Brass including the Drain Plug, a 160 Thermostat, a 13 or 14 Lb. sealed Cap with overflow tank and NO problems. The Temp. Gauge rarely would reach a tick past center, and tested at 170-180F.

A lot of these cars, now all over the Country, have been in Non or rarely freezing Climates, and in the Day ran Tap Water and sometimes with Soluble Oil added, so you never know if the Block in another Day, has been allowed to accumulate a TON of Rusted Iron !