TESTED Muscle: Was the 1963 Studebaker Avanti R2 the First American Muscle Car Ever Produced?

[bumpkinvilledano]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWIQd9XOwhE

[6hk71400]

Dan,

Good to see you posting again.
This topic is one that can go back to the 1920's with a company putting a larger engine in a smaller car. Studebaker, Packard both did that with certain models. Buick in the 1930's did this with putting the larger Super straight eight in the small Special body creating the Buick Century, named because the car was supposed to be able to hit 100 mph.

Post war, the argument could be made the first Post war car to put a larger engine in a smaller car was the Studebaker Golden Hawk of 1956 with the 275 hp 352 Packard V8. Most people that owned Thunderbird's and Corvette's usually saw the taillights of all Golden Hawks of the era. Most ignore or choose not to go back to take a further look at S-P as being the first postwar muscle car.(as an owner of a 57 Golden Hawk, I am biased of course)

The 1960's saw the Chrysler 300's and Buick Wildcat's as the "banker Hot Rod" The Avanti R2's did have with that engine but in my opinion (probably no one else) that the car was sold as a 4 passenger gran touring car with a base price before options of $4,445.

Most everyone thinks the muscle car era started with the 1964 GTO. Pontiac put the 389 in the tempest with a low base price or $3,000. Anyone with a down payment could buy one. This is the time when baby boomers were starting to come into the automotive market. The GTO alone sold around 32,000 cars, which was close to the total production of Studebaker in 1964. In April 1964, the Model A of sporty cars debut at the 1964 World Fair was the Mustang. It started as a sporty car not a muscle car.

In my opinion, the Avanti and R series Larks and Hawks were great cars but did not have the backing of the General and Ford to make that impact. Studebaker owners have no reason to hang their head because had the circumstance been different the cars would be considered as muscle cars first.

[Hawklover]

Dan,

Good to see you posting again.
This topic is one that can go back to the 1920's with a company putting a larger engine in a smaller car. Studebaker, Packard both did that with certain models. Buick in the 1930's did this with putting the larger Super straight eight in the small Special body creating the Buick Century, named because the car was supposed to be able to hit 100 mph.

Post war, the argument could be made the first Post war car to put a larger engine in a smaller car was the Studebaker Golden Hawk of 1956 with the 275 hp 352 Packard V8. Most people that owned Thunderbird's and Corvette's usually saw the taillights of all Golden Hawks of the era. Most ignore or choose not to go back to take a further look at S-P as being the first postwar muscle car.(as an owner of a 57 Golden Hawk, I am biased of course)

The 1960's saw the Chrysler 300's and Buick Wildcat's as the "banker Hot Rod" The Avanti R2's did have with that engine but in my opinion (probably no one else) that the car was sold as a 4 passenger gran touring car with a base price before options of $4,445.

Most everyone thinks the muscle car era started with the 1964 GTO. Pontiac put the 389 in the tempest with a low base price or $3,000. Anyone with a down payment could buy one. This is the time when baby boomers were starting to come into the automotive market. The GTO alone sold around 32,000 cars, which was close to the total production of Studebaker in 1964. In April 1964, the Model A of sporty cars debut at the 1964 World Fair was the Mustang. It started as a sporty car not a muscle car.

In my opinion, the Avanti and R series Larks and Hawks were great cars but did not have the backing of the General and Ford to make that impact. Studebaker owners have no reason to hang their head because had the circumstance been different the cars would be considered as muscle cars first.

Excellent, could not have expressed the thoughts any better!!

[Hallabutt]

Spot on Bob! If you hadn't touched all the bases I would have tried, however I doubt that I could have done as well. It has always seemed that for many owners, there has been a disconnect between pre-war and post-war motoring. It's almost as though the war separated the two eras. I think that it's important to keep in mind that Studebaker produced car for four decades before the war and only about two decades after the war. A lot of stuff that some people take for granted was developed post war actually had it genesis much earlier.

I would like to add another car to the post-war mix. That of the 1949 Oldsmobile 88. In an unprecedented move Olds put the modern 303cu" V8 built for the much larger models in the smaller body that they shared with Chevrolet. It may seem like the 303cu" engine might seem a little small by Muscle Car standards, but it should be considered when compared to other contemporary offerings.

[bumpkinvilledano]

Dan,

Good to see you posting again.
This topic is one that can go back to the 1920's with a company putting a larger engine in a smaller car. Studebaker, Packard both did that with certain models. Buick in the 1930's did this with putting the larger Super straight eight in the small Special body creating the Buick Century, named because the car was supposed to be able to hit 100 mph.

Post war, the argument could be made the first Post war car to put a larger engine in a smaller car was the Studebaker Golden Hawk of 1956 with the 275 hp 352 Packard V8. Most people that owned Thunderbird's and Corvette's usually saw the taillights of all Golden Hawks of the era. Most ignore or choose not to go back to take a further look at S-P as being the first postwar muscle car.(as an owner of a 57 Golden Hawk, I am biased of course)

The 1960's saw the Chrysler 300's and Buick Wildcat's as the "banker Hot Rod" The Avanti R2's did have with that engine but in my opinion (probably no one else) that the car was sold as a 4 passenger gran touring car with a base price before options of $4,445.

Most everyone thinks the muscle car era started with the 1964 GTO. Pontiac put the 389 in the tempest with a low base price or $3,000. Anyone with a down payment could buy one. This is the time when baby boomers were starting to come into the automotive market. The GTO alone sold around 32,000 cars, which was close to the total production of Studebaker in 1964. In April 1964, the Model A of sporty cars debut at the 1964 World Fair was the Mustang. It started as a sporty car not a muscle car.

In my opinion, the Avanti and R series Larks and Hawks were great cars but did not have the backing of the General and Ford to make that impact. Studebaker owners have no reason to hang their head because had the circumstance been different the cars would be considered as muscle cars first.

Bob,
I've been lurking lately, decided to post this. Might post similar in the future, not gonna do the "cars found" thing. Seems those were either of no interest or generated high drama. Life is too short for either. Obviously I still have interest in the marque and probably will buy another if the right one comes along. At the moment I'm just playing with my Mopars, hopefully have my current project on the road by spring.

[Noxnabaker]

My vote for 1:st muscle car would be the -55 Chrysler 300, followed by the Golden Hawk & then the Avanti, but I've been wrong before...

[6hk71400]

My vote for 1:st muscle car would be the -55 Chrysler 300, followed by the Golden Hawk & then the Avanti, but I've been wrong before...

Nox,

This thread will probably have several posters all with a valid point of view. Going back to 1928, Studebaker put a larger engine in a smaller bodied roaster and called the model the Speedster. Packard did the same thing , in 1931 with the 745 model which did the same thing. Buick did the same thing with the 1936 Century. Postwar, Bill brought up the 1949 Oldsmobile which transformed the low suds flathead six overnight into a Nascar contender. Speaking of Nascar, Hudson Hornet with 7X option. I can the see the 55 300 with the modified base 354 Hemi but with the weight to horsepower ratio, it may fall short with the criteria. Now if Chrysler had placed that engine in a 1955 Plymouth Plaza coupe I would vote for that as the first muscle car, followed by the 1956 Golden Hawk. As it is, Studebaker (again a valid argument that Studebaker was ahead of their time) was the first to place a larger engine in a lighter car post war.

Performance has always been a hook for car owners going back to when you could order speed parts for the Model T and the races at Muroc beds in the 1920's Going back even further how about the Stutz verses Mercer. (Slogans: you have to be nuts to drive a Stutz and nothing is worser than a Mercer). Before automobiles, it was who had the fastest horse and buggy. I remember a scene for the Gary Cooper movie "Friendly Persuasion" which the two characters every Sunday race to the meeting house.

What the future holds, no idea, but it is great we can have a friendly discussion here on the forum

[Noxnabaker]

So I was wrong again, no worries!
& sorry, I didn't mean it as a non friendly input.

[bensherb]

What about the 1936 Cord 810, with it's 289 cubic inch supercharged V8 !

[6hk71400]

What about the 1936 Cord 810, with it's 289 cubic inch supercharged V8 !

Whoa boy! The Cord 810 was at 120 bhp with the 289 cubic inch Lycoming V8 and the 1937 812 came with the 170 bhp with the supercharger. The Cord was conceived as a baby Duesenberg with a price of $1,995, or about the price of 3 Fords or Chevrolets. One of the weak points was the constant velocity joints and transmission. However, the 265 bhp SJ Duesenberg was the king of the hill, with the Cord 812 right up there. Total production for the two years was around 3,000 cars. It was and is a very classy automobile

A few of my friends have mentioned that the pre war Hudson were a very fast automobile. We had a member here in SoAz that had a 1939 President that he drove constantly drove at highway speeds on several of our tours. I think they are more top line models rather than muscle cars but boy they could run!

[rockne10]

Well, Robert, a very well presented history and, as others have suggested, more than a few other branches on the ascendancy.
I took the question regarding "American muscle car" as applied to the 1960s, and if Studebaker might have beat them to it.
I don't think an argument can be made that the '55 President 'Speedster' would be in the club but, no doubt in my mind, the '56 Golden Hawk with the Packard V-8 would qualify, and the next year '57 Golden, with the lighter Studebaker V-8 and supercharger, might be President of the club.

All in my humble opinion, of course.