Anyone own one of these Studebaker Champion Six modified with valve seals?

[StudeSailor]

Hi everyone.

After few years consulting this forum for informations, this is my first post

I would like to get opinions/evaluations from those who had their champion (or any other Stude flathead) rebuilt with the valve seals modification. Does it really help with oil consumption? How long did you run the engine (many miles, country roads, highways)? Any problem so far (like valve guid premature wear)? Would you recommend this to someone else who want to rebuilt his engine?

I'm looking for actual owner with experiences in running the engine with seals.

Oh, and sorry for the mistake when writing, my first language is french (from Canada)

Thanks in advance for sharing.

LL

[StudeRich]

Sorry I can't say that I have done what you are considering.

Gravity works against the Oil being pulled UP the Valve Stems of a "L" Flathead Engine, so I don't think anyone has tried to do that.
The baffles that Studebaker designed to block any splash in the Valve Chambers should keep that under control.

But when the Valve Lifter Bores in the Block get excessively worn the blocks are Done.

[oilnsteel]

Those little springy things to restrict the lifter oil gallery seemed to help when the lifter bores wore. I think it was Sealed Power that put them in their ring sets.
JT

[StudeRich]

They were not Springy things, they were Plugs on a wire with limited flow small holes in them to slow the Flow to the Lifters..

[jcharlestc]

"Oh, and sorry for the mistake when writing, my first language is french (from Canada)."

Mistake? Mistake?? You do just fine.
Most of us here do much worse, and know only one language--some form of English.

"We have really everything in common with America nowadays except, of course, language"---Oscar Wilde

[jts359]

I used the small block Chevy type of valve seal , Its not much more than an o ring , And it cut down smoking alot , I put them on the intake valves only , Ed

[PackardV8]

Greetings, StudeSailor and welcome,

Yes, I've installed positive valve stem seals on a few Champions:
First, chrome valve stems are a must.
Second, they're a PITA to cut the bottom of the guides and then to drive them on once the guides are installed.
Third, they do cut oil consumption and smoking on deceleration to nil.
Fourth, they improve intake manifold vacuum and should increase fuel mileage.
Fifth, who knows how they'll wear, as these old hobby cars don't get miles on them.

No, intake valve stem seals are not absolutely necessary if the lifter bores are not excessively worn, if new lifters are used and if machinist is capable of accurately controlling stem-to-guide clearance. The gains from valve stem seals are small, but again the Champion is small, so any gains are good.

Maybe, define your goals and your budget.

jack vines

[Mike Van Veghten]

Sorry I can't say that I have done what you are considering.

Gravity works against the Oil being pulled UP the Valve Stems of a "L" Flathead Engine, so I don't think anyone has tried to do that.
The baffles that Studebaker designed to block any splash in the Valve Chambers should keep that under control.

But when the Valve Lifter Bores in the Block get excessively worn the blocks are Done.

As others have noted, any time a high vacuum (upon deceleration) is present, oil will find its way into that point of vacuum, gravity or not.

Mike

[StudeSailor]

Thanks for the feedback.

I was asking because I already had my engine rebuilt twice this year by a shop.

First the shop rebuilt it with positive seals : no oil burning/consumption but developped a bad and loud knocking sound after 500 miles. Like a failed connecting rod bearing noise.

Second time : all bearings ok, knocking found to be badly worn valve guids, probably because of oil starvation. So cleaned everything, put new valves guids with, according to them, adjusted tolerances stem-to-guid clearance. Now puffing/burning oil. Consumed 2 liters (a bit more than 2 US quarts) for 1000 miles.

I'll post the detailed story later on. That might give more details and answer some of the suggestion you already shared.

LL

[StudeSailor]

When I bought the car 2 years ago for a fair price, I knew the engine wasn't very good. It ran well but consumed lot of oil and smoked blue especially after 20 mins of driving and on deceleration. The previous owner, an old gentlemen hid nothing so far. He was kinda rough old retired mechanic that ''you are better to listen to him when he explain something'' but I think a pretty honest one. He gave me lots of information, repair/maintenance tips and answered my questions. He worried a bit about the engine. After a year or so, the blue smoking went from puffing to an all the time burning and loosing the road in smoke. Oil consumption became terrible, about a liter for 1 hours drive were it was 1/4 liter before.

I decided to have the engine rebuilt and I made several calls to find a shop willing to to it. Found one that has a good reputation from many garages/dealers around. They do rebuilts on many old cars (pre-war flathead, post war SBC, hemi) and also on industrial engines that looks like very much to the Stude engine (timing gears etc). I went there to talk and see. I was quite confident as they already did one Stude champion flathead before. They weren't on the rush like everywhere else these days and they explained to me how it usually work. And believe me, having an engine rebuilt in Quebec, Canada is really expensive (weak dollard for parts imports, strong taxes etc)...

Anyway, I provided lots of informations : many recommendations from this forum, copy of parts list, copy of shop manual. Talked also about Stude peculiar stuffs like lifter bore wear possibility, adjustment shown in shop manual, what do they think about positive seal with brass insert in the guid and much more.

So I took out the engine of the car and send it to them. During the rebuilt, they informed me they found nothing very wrong, just normal ''tears and wears''. Also, they accepted to install positive valve seals but deemed not necessary to put a brass insert with the new guids.

First time I got back the engine with modern positive valve seal installed. No visual smoke, only small oil consumption (mostly nothing). I did the timing, carb adjustments, few checks. Removed the 195 F thermostat they put for a correct 160 F one and then on the road. After the first 500 miles, I changed the oil and went back on the road to find out it make a loud knocking noise. Went to the shop with the car (towed), they suspected a failed connecting rod bearing. It really sound like it. They dismantle the engine and found nothing except very, very worned valve guids (they were new). They said they worn fast because of oil starvation due to the seals. Since it was a special demand on my part, responsability seem to be mine for the garantee but that remain to be discussed...

Second time I got back the engine all original as per the shop manual (no valve seals). I had to reverse the spark plug because they put the distributor rod 180 off. Begin to drive the car to find out it puffed when decelarating. Called the shop, they said to run the car as much as I can to settle the piston rings. So, continue to drive and check/add oil. Being told later on the car is smoking more than I noticed in the mirror. I asked my brother and sister-in-law to follow me. They filmed my car and in fact, it is burning oil, blue smoke mostly 90% of the time. More when decelerating and putting the gaz on afterward.

Just to resume a bit :

First rebuilt :

-The lifter bores are intact, they have been carefuly mesured. Only the lifter showned wear. Replaced by new ones.
-Oil pressure is good, 65 cold idle, 10-11 PSI hot idle, 38-42 PSI at 40 mph hot. Lucas 10W30 for hot-rod/classic car. Temperature around 170 F with 160 thermostat.
-Oil baffles are in place.
-Chrome ring installed with new pistons (small oversize), etc etc... New guids, positive seals...
500 miles, oil changed, notice nothing except a very tiny copper wire in oil. But could be from the bucket.

First result : bad knocking noise at 500 miles.

Second rebuit
-Dismantled the engine, mesuring everything and looking for a bad bearing (knocking).
-Everything fine with bearings, crankshaft, camshaft, pistons & cylinders except the valve guids very baldy worn.
-Cleaned everything. Fixed the valve problem & put a new camshaft timing gear (old one was found cracked).

Second result : -Smoke blue, puff when decelerating & smoke a bit 90 % of the time, oil consumption = 2 liters for 1000 miles. A bit more than 2 US quarts.

Here I am for now. I'll call them again. So if someone think about something, please share.

By the way, the car is a 1956 Champion 2 doors, 185 flathead engine, 3 speed on column no overdrive. Built in Hamilton. Real nice car to drive!

LL

[skyway]

Per post #2, there should be a removable, sheet metal, baffle perched inside each tappet cover. After 60 years of valve adjustments and other monkeying around by those who don’t know any better many engines no longer have them. Are yours still there?? If not, your first step should be to locate a pair & install them. Those baffles alone MAY reduce your oil consumption to something more reasonable 🤞

[StudeSailor]

Today's answers :

For Skyway and StudeRich : shop confirmed the oil baffles are in the engine.

For Mike : I am thinking my engine is doing that, sucking oil by vaccuum. Maybe by the valve or maybe by the piston rings if they aren't seat yet.

ForOilnSteel JT : no, the shop did not installed oil restrictor. In fact, oil pressure has been very good since first rebuilt and stayed the same so far.

Another answer for StudeRich : shop said the lifter bore were intact. Only the old lifters suffered and they had been replaced with new.

For Jts359 Ed : About your early type SBC seal on intake valves :

1) I guess it is an obvious question from me but : Are these installed on the valve stem just below the valve guid? See schematics on attached pictures.
2) If it is like an o-ring seal, what prevent it to fall down away from the bottom of the guid?
3) Have you put many miles on the engine after the rebuilt?



For PackardV8 Jack : I've read carefuly your comments and I also read some of your past posts.

1) About the chrome steel valve, I'll ask the shop. I know they did not put a brass insert in the valve guid like some do. Do you use any special valve guid (brass, steel)?
2) I've read somewhere the first time you installed such seals on a Stude six was in 2014. So I guess you did several of them and you never had any bad feedback/return about fast guid wear with or without a knocking sound like I had.
3) I believe you when you said it is something to prepare & install. Maybe I will have to learn how to do it myself!
4) As for defining my goal and budget : I wanted a strong reliable engine to put many miles on it if I wanted to. No blue smoke and minimum oil consumption only. I don't mind to pay a good price as long as the result worth it. Which I think I did but the result are yet to be seen.

Thanks again for all your comments.

LL

[PackardV8]

As to using valve stem seals on flathead intake guides, the best-regarded flathead Ford V8 builder in the US has been doing this for twenty years with no problems.

First the shop rebuilt it with positive seals : no oil burning/consumption but developped a bad and loud knocking sound after 500 miles. Like a failed connecting rod bearing noise.

In all the years of doing this, we've never heard audible knocking from worn valve guides, even those with .005" side clearance. Anyone else ever heard worn valve guides sound like a rod knock?

Also, even with no lubrication, it's difficult to imagine how the valve guides could have become badly worn in 500 miles. A guide too tight, the valve sticks open; too loose, there's little side force. It would be instructive to see the guides and valves they removed.

Second result : -Smoke blue, puff when decelerating & smoke a bit 90 % of the time, oil consumption = 2 liters for 1000 miles. A bit more than 2 US quarts.

If new valves and new guides are used and if the stem-to-guide clearance is set correctly, a new rebuilt engine without valve stem seals should not burn any oil nor have any visible smoke.

-Chrome ring installed with new pistons

Chrome rings require the cylinder bore to be honed appropriately, but your shop will have known that. Run a compression test and a leakdown test to determine if the rings have seated.

Most every Champion is going to have some wear in the lifter bores. You are fortunate yours did not, as oversize lifters are NLA , so there's currently no inexpensive fix for worn lifter bores.

jack vines

[StudeSailor]

Jack, here are the results for the compression test I performed last friday : warm engine, disconnected power to ignition, wide open trottle, open choke, all plugs removed, charger on the battery. All cylinders reached their max pressure within 30-35 seconds of cranking.

Cyl 1 = 150 PSI
Cyl 2 = 142
Cyl 3 = 150
Cyl 4 = 143
Cyl 5 = 144
Cyl 6 = 142.

Here is a picture of the spark plug (installed 1000 miles ago). The plug 1 is hard to see on the picture, it is at the top of the photo. Don't ask me why I did not put it alongside the others because I don't know... Anyway, most of them are light brown. Only 1 and 6 are quite clean. What do you think, do they looks ok or ... ?



For the leak down test, my brother have the tool here but we have to find out how to use it. I'll read the instructions and once I'll understand, I'll give a try and post the result.

I called the shop today but the manager is on medical leave for one week. I'll have to wait before getting some more answers.

Again, thanks for your comments.

LL

[PackardV8]

Your compression is nice and even; above average for a Champion, so it's probable the chrome rings have seated.

You did a good compression test , but 30-35 seconds is longer than necessary. IIRC from the Shop Manual, about 4-5 strokes is all that is required.

jack vines

[StudeRich]

It would be interesting to know WHERE these Valve Guides came from, what are they made of, Aluminum? LOL!

Studebaker Vendor ones are Cast Iron like Originals.
The Oil passages to the Lifters MUST be plugged up to have THAT much wear THAT Fast.

If the Block Originally did HAVE the Restrictor Plug in there, the Shop Missed it, and it got totally Plugged which would be easy due to the small size opening, I could see how this could happen.

I think the Knocking was misdiagnosed and was NOT Guides but the Broken Cam Gear.
I have experienced that Twice, and it sounded like a Rod Brg.