Mileage Verification

[dbiddle]

I bought a 1950 Land Cruiser that the original selling owner has promised has only 17,000 original miles. There are no title transfer records from when the owner obtained the car from her grandfather in his will. The grandfather reportedly rarely drove the car, living within walking distance of his jobs. I believe the originality based on many other aspects of the car's condition, but would like to officially verify the mileage if possible. The numbers on the attached odometer photos certainly seem to be in perfect alignment, but is there any other way to determine if the odometer has been rolled over at some point in time? The odometer, and most all other dash gauges and radio, work perfectly on the car, so I know it is recording accurate mileage at this time.

Thanks for any advice,

Dan Biddle

[showbizkid]

dbiddle , welcome to the Forum! I'm sure our members will ring in shortly.

FYI, the "Forum Q&A" channel is meant to be used when you're looking for help in using the Forum's functions and features. Questions like this one should go in the ""General Studebaker-Specific Discussion" channel, so I moved it there.

Cheers!

[RadioRoy]

Look at the rest of the car for signs of wear. Are the pedals severely worn down to the steel backing, or have the pedals been replaced? Is the front seat upholstery and padding shot? Is the steering wheel completely cracked? Are there significant scratches on the sides of the body, along with lots of little dents? Is the front suspension completely caked and packed with mud and old grease? Is the grille area of the car covered with stone chips? Are there lots of lubrication stickers in the driver's door frame? Has the car been repainted?

How about showing us some pictures of the car and let us help?

[studegary]

Even 117,515 miles would only average out to 1679 miles per year. If it is 117K, it still hasn't been altered and would be in proper alignment. If it has 17,515 miles that would average to 250 miles per year. That may have been the case in later years, but unlikely for the first years of a new car.

Of course, I have not seen the car to make a determination. For old cars, I pay no attention to odometer readings. Makes me think of a 1961 Lark that I looked at with 11K miles. The only thing changed on the car was the battery. The car was kept in an open side equipment shed with a dirt floor. The car was so rusty underneath that I would not chance driving it around the block. I did not buy it.

[StudeRich]

Yes a Dead Giveaway is when you find a Lube Sticker on the Door or Door Post that says something like: 85,400 Miles.
That's when you know the Speedometer has turned over.

Usually the conditions Roy mentioned will determine it though.

And then again, what if it Does have only 17,000 Miles, but with No repairs and little maintenance everything Mechanical: Suspension, Brakes, Engine needs repairing or rebuilding anyway from Age? What does that say about it's Value?

I don't think ANYONE could "verify" and swear, State on paper etc. that the Mileage is correct.
Some of the Parts, Repairs, Tires any Old Receipts could help though, comparing the Dates to the Mileages.

OK, there's one not mentioned, are the Tires Original 710X15 Bias Ply Deluxe Champion Firestone?

[Al from Eatonville]

Two additional thoughts: assuming it has an oil filter (cartridge type) check it for the brand name. Cars rarely used often don't get regular oil changes. A number of brands that existed "back in the day" have been NLA for many years. Also check in and below the glove compartment for a small slip of paper with the paint code. Low mileage cars are more likely to still have the slip than those that have been used regularly because they fall off and disappear.

[dbiddle]

Thank you all for your suggestions and advice. It's taken a bit to get all the answers to all the questions and suggestions, but here's what I have so far:

1. Overall car condition - there is virtually no rust on the body. It has been painted reportedly approx. 40 years ago or so - the grandfather reportedly didn't like the original color. (photo attached)
2. The only light rust appears in the trunk underneath the trunk mat. (photo attached)
3. The underbody has minimal rust, and is completely coated with the original undercoating that was reportedly applied when new. (rustproofing decal photo on rear window attached)
4. The oil filter cartridge is a Baldwin P40. (photo attached)
5. The steering wheel has no cracks and is immaculate. (photo attached)
6. The upholstery (once we cleaned it) shows no wear and the fabric is pristine. (front seat photo attached)
7. The pedals show no wear at all, and I don't think they've been replaced. (photo attached)
8. In a fit of stupidity, I trashed the tires that were on it when I bought it, replacing all 5 with Coker nyon-bias tires. I do recall that the tires when I purchased the car where nylon-bias tires made by LEE and were 710 x 15. They had cracks in the sidewalls, though very little tread wear.
9. I did locate the original paint code tag beneath the glove box - has the Dupont Aqua Green Enamel paint code. (photo attached) The engine compartment and door jams retain that original color - only the body has been repainted with a more blue color.
10. I did locate a lube service sticker in the drivers-side door-jam, showing an oil change and new battery that occurred in July of 1964 at 13,268 miles. (tag photo attached) There appears to be only one other sticker underneath this 1964 sticker.
11. The engine compartment is essentially rust-free and is in the original Dupont green color. (photo attached)

I'm getting more convinced that this is an original mileage car, based on the notes above and the family commentary re: scant times this car ever made an excursion. And the car has been stored and not driven for the past approximately 40 years or so. If anyone else has suggestions or ideas for me, please let me know. Thanks again for the excellent replies and comments.

Best regards,

Dan Biddle

[StudeRich]

We will have to take your word for it Dan, since the Only visible Pic is the Oil Filter, Enlarging the tiny Pics just makes them SMALLER!
That IS looking like the "Real Deal" though!

[Hallabutt]

Very nice find. It seems like you have found a mostly untouched original low mileage car. The only real blemish on it's originality is the after market paint job. Sadly original paint is the feature of a survivor that is most sot after. The AACA has specific standards for vetting original cars. There is a formula that will give you an idea if your car will qualify for judging. If the process doesn't appeal to you, enjoy the car for what you know it to be.

I have several survivor quality cars that would qualify, but there is no AACA within over a thousand miles of where I live. I have come to enjoy them for what I know them to be. There may be a real monetary value that you may want to insure. For this you can describe for your classic car insurer, specifics of it's original condition, and allow them to determine what an agreed upon value should be. Or you can pay for a certified appraiser set a value that you can present to your insurer.

Bill

[dbiddle]

Thanks for the responses. I’m clearly struggling with the photo sizes.

I’ll check out the AACA and let that guide me. Since it’s already been painted (poorly) which affects the originality quotient, I plan to have the paint completely stripped and repainted next spring, though I don’t currently plan to do a frame-off program due to it’s low mileage and original condition in all other ways. If anyone has a suggestion for a starting insurance value, I’d be interested to hear.

Thanks again,
Dan Biddle I

[studegary]

You didn't state in your original post that the car had been stored for 40 years. That would have changed my initial response. With that information and the pictures now provided, I believe that you do have a very low mileage car. It is too bad about the paint.

[raidmagic]

That would be irrelevant to me, either than making sure the rubber parts and brakes were good I'd drive the wheels off that thing.

[Hallabutt]

Daniel,

I really like your car, so try to take my comments within the spirit with which they are offered. Your pictures show that considerable has been done over the years in an attempt at making the car presentable, at least to the previous owner's eyes. I see non-original carpets and the paint work, that you have commented on. Forty years ago there was very little stimulus to keeping a car original. That attitude changed in the early nineties. Prior to the nineties restoration or refurbishment was the goal for the vast majority of the car world. Historic significance was the price paid for by a shinny paint and a new interior.

I mentioned previously that I have several legitimate survivors in our collection. In addition we also have several that would be in that category, save for the fact that they have suffered because of paint work done before I got them. No matter how original the cars are otherwise, they will never be considered survivors.

IMO this leave us all, who own such a car, on a slippery slope. I hate to say it, but the changes in paint and carpet make any vetting of your car, as a survivor, difficult, to impossible. A quality paint job and appropriate carpet, might make your car competitive in concourse judging. But only because of the overall condition of your car, especially the interior. I have been a judge many times. It's really sad to have to deduct points for original items that people have proudly maintained, when the car was refurbished. A hybrid original/refurbishment will seldom be competitive on a field of restored cars. I have found that generally once an owner starts to upgrade, they end up doing body on restoration, because the original parts look shabby in comparison. The cost of a proper paint job and the right carpeting will easily exceed the value of your car.

Good luck,
Bill

[Hallabutt]

Disassembly, stripping the body, block sanding, application of quality product, and cutting and rubbing, and the the addition of the right carpets, could easily set you back $15-20K. I only strip old paint when necessary. If it were my car I would block sand the pain that's already on the car. But then I probably would enjoy the car the way it is. Opinions will vary, it will be your choice.

Bill

[Bob Andrews]

Your original request was how to "officially" verify the mileage. The answer is, it is not possible. In most cases, it is not possible.

I buy and sell collector cars, with over 40 years' experience. The first thing is, with most average collector cars it doesn't really matter much, only in certain circumstances. Second thing is, with old cars, the only truly documentable low mileage claims have carefully kept logs and receipt collections.

In your case, this is not a premium blue-chip collectible, so I wouldn't worry about it. The standard in the business is to use the word 'believed', as in 'believed to be 17xxx original miles.' That makes the point and encourages the buyer to examine the condition and decide for himself. And it does the most important thing, which is to call attention to condition and originality.