Engine: Should I re-install the copper Valve Spring "spacers" that were in my 289 V8 ?

[bsrosell]

hi,
Now that I finally got my oil-pan on (whoever recommended the studs in the block corners, THANK YOU, made all the difference....) I'm starting to work on the heads and re-assembly after new valves, seats, springs, etc.. My engine had these spacers under each valve spring (photo), labeled "this side up".....

I would have thought nothing of it and simply planned to put each one back in as they were under my new springs, but a recent post mentioned these may have been 'aftermarket' to avoid putting in new springs, give a little extra 'oompf' to the worn ones.....

I can't find them in the Parts Catalog, so am thinking that poster was right; double-checking before I get to that point. Do I put them in or toss them in the 'misc washers' bin? :-)
Thanks!
Barry

[DEEPNHOCK]

They are designed to get the spring to the correct pressure at the 'installed height'.
Taking them out of your existing springs will lower your 'installed height' spring pressure (on your OLD springs).
Since you say you have installed new springs, then the spacers were meant for your old springs.
However... If you are 'blueprinting' your engine, then even the new springs should be tested for spring pressure.
But 98% of people never bother to do this.

[Mike Van Veghten]

What Jeff said.

All springs should be tested upon installation. "NO" set of springs will have 16 springs with the same pressure.
Some are close enough to not need shims, some will need shims, you may even have to toss a spring or two from to high a pressure.

Mike

[Chipmaker]

When you grind the valves and the valve spring seats,it lets the valve set deeper in the head.This makes the valve stem futher from the spring seat.the spacers were used to correct the space between the spring seat and spring holder.Your manual should show the proper distance.Place the valve in the correct hole leave the spring OFF, install the holder and a set of keepers.Measure between the seat and spring holder then use the proper thickness spacer to bring it to spec.The spacers come in differant thickness and you can use more than one if needed.Also need to measure each valve as thay may not be the same.

[bsrosell]

thanks guys!

[doofus]

Chip maker is dead on the money,take it from someone who measures all springs, and i have tossed more than a few. the shims come in several thicknesses thin .015? for balancing spring pressures up to .060 for really weak springs. Good catch Bsrosell. luck Doofus

[DEEPNHOCK]

Post #2 explained it.
"Installed height"

http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Valvetrain/ValveSpringTech.aspx

[swvalcon]

You will also find that a lot of machine shops will add the shims on all springs when they do a valve job no matter what. On a stock cam you shouldn't have to worry about coil bind with the shims. Same with a stock cam most times you have little problems with weak springs and those that are the tech installing them most times can feel them on install. Now if your going a r-2 cam or close I would most defiantly have each spring checked for both pressure and coil bind at max lift.

[Dan Timberlake]

swvalcon said - "You will also find that a lot of machine shops will add the shims on all springs when they do a valve job no matter what."

Yes, I'm an advocate of checking stuff myself. Many critical dimensions can be measured with very few precision measuring tools, with desire and a little thought.

I Bought a used first year Volvo 245 with the last year of the pushrod motor used from a Doctor's wife. They'd had maintenance done by an independent shop in their upscale Massachusetts seacoast town. Most Recently they'd had the cam replaced. The invoice included "complete head rebuild" or somesuch. Within weeks of owning the car I was chasing valve noise with valve adjustments , and a deranged nonsensical ignition timing mark. MY autopsy revealed The practically new cam had developed several wiped lobes. Those Volvo push rod engines had relatively short valve springs. The late factory fuel injection engines made max HP at 6000 rpm, and required quite a bit of spring. I was amazed to find (by actual measurement) that the stock springs were very close to coil bind without any shims. The nominal shim thrown under every spring by the mAcHinE ShoP took several of the springs to coil bind (no gaps in spring at full lift) which is brutal on the cam and valve train. Another glitch was One of the valve faces had been ground VERY eccentric. So eccentric that the stem had distinct pattern of the valve guide knurling embossed in. The independent shop continued the machine shop's high standards by leaving out the intake manifold brace and (much more serious) undertorquing the crank pulley bolt. That car used a unique giant iron pulley whose torque spec was way higher than the standard car. In their defense Only the standard torque appeared in my copy of the "Motor foreign car manual." The standard result of too low damper/pulley torque ( sheared crank keys and battered crank, seal sleeve, pulley etc, etc) had occurred. The stack of maintenance receipts that came with the car showed the shop had tightened the bolt for the Previous Owner a time or two after the cam replacement, so they had seen the result and chose to ignore it.

Grr.

[jnormanh]

swvalcon said - "You will also find that a lot of machine shops will add the shims on all springs when they do a valve job no matter what."

Yes, I'm an advocate of checking stuff myself. Many critical dimensions can be measured with very few precision measuring tools, with desire and a little thought.

I Bought a used first year Volvo 245 with the last year of the pushrod motor used from a Doctor's wife. They'd had maintenance done by an independent shop in their upscale Massachusetts seacoast town. Most Recently they'd had the cam replaced. The invoice included "complete head rebuild" or somesuch. Within weeks of owning the car I was chasing valve noise with valve adjustments , and a deranged nonsensical ignition timing mark. MY autopsy revealed The practically new cam had developed several wiped lobes. Those Volvo push rod engines had relatively short valve springs. The late factory fuel injection engines made max HP at 6000 rpm, and required quite a bit of spring. I was amazed to find (by actual measurement) that the stock springs were very close to coil bind without any shims. The nominal shim thrown under every spring by the mAcHinE ShoP took several of the springs to coil bind (no gaps in spring at full lift) which is brutal on the cam and valve train. Another glitch was One of the valve faces had been ground VERY eccentric. So eccentric that the stem had distinct pattern of the valve guide knurling embossed in. The independent shop continued the machine shop's high standards by leaving out the intake manifold brace and (much more serious) undertorquing the crank pulley bolt. That car used a unique giant iron pulley whose torque spec was way higher than the standard car. In their defense Only the standard torque appeared in my copy of the "Motor foreign car manual." The standard result of too low damper/pulley torque ( sheared crank keys and battered crank, seal sleeve, pulley etc, etc) had occurred. The stack of maintenance receipts that came with the car showed the shop had tightened the bolt for the Previous Owner a time or two after the cam replacement, so they had seen the result and chose to ignore it.

Grr.

two comments:

The "independent shop" used are incompetent boobs. The Vovlo "red" pushrod engine is a simple engine just like any old iron pushrod engine from a Chebby, or any British car. If you can't do a simple valve job on that, you should be digging ditches.

I'm not certain about the "red" pushrod Volvo engines, but on the later "white" OHC engines the correct torque for the crank bolt is 350 Ft-lbs. That can only be accomplished with a chain around the crank pulley, anchored to a frame rail, and a two foot long wrench with a very strong young man pushing it, or a 1" drive impact wrench. Half inch air-impact wrenches will come up way short. A heavy man standing on a common socket wrench handle is 50% short of enough.

[JoeHall]

I am surprised anyone can comment on fixing older Volvo motors. The 1970s to 1990s vintage 124s I am familiar with are good for at least 300,000 miles. If you got a lemon that only lasted 200,000 miles, they were no deposit & no return, meaning nobody bothers to rebuild them Because they do not wear out, even today used motors are plentiful. Most folks just swap in another one.

[doofus]

I am surprised someone went to the trouble of knurling the guides. thought the "Pro Shops" were against this practice which i like, personally. done quite a few Studes along with positive stem seals and have had good results over the years. mechanic friend used to bug me about my cheap practices till we tore down a B300 cummins V8 and found factory knurled guides! from a retired shade tree, Doofus

[TWChamp]

I've also knurled many guides and had good results. I've never heard any negatives about the practice.