Engine: 51 Champion 6-Valve Guides/Seats

[Corvanti]

when i purchased the late Tom Elliott's 51, i was told it would need valve guides/seats work soon. driven for two years, it smoked a little (white smoke). yesterday i took her out to get some "non-crap" gas. as soon as got on the highway at speed (50ish), it started smoking bad with a oil smell as i turned around and parked her in the cave.

i last changed the oil in September 14 with 30W Rotella and added "Bar's Engine Repair": http://www.autozone.com/fuel-and-eng...air/94559_0_0/ to see what it would do. my oil pressure actually went up a bit after driving awhile, but the smoke was about the same as before (a little).

compression test shows 114 low and 122 high. i haven't done a vacuum leakdown test yet. i've lost about a pint of oil since Sept but it does leak about the size of a coffee saucer plate amount after a drive.

i've read the shop manual and see the seats are part of the engine and appears to me machined out. i don't have the equipment nor have worked in a flathead before. no problem pulling a OHV head and taking it to a machine shop.

so, what to do? idk of any local shops that work on these, but really haven't looked much in the past. another problem is $$$ due to the ex. if $ was no object, i'd think about a Studebaker V8, but i'm sure i'd have to at least replace the DG150 auto trans if not more of the drivetrain.

thanks for "listening"...

EDIT: no antifreeze in the oil or vice-versa...

[StudeRich]

This magic potion contains some kind of "sealer" so I would try flushing or rinsing the crankcase out to remove it, maybe it clogged the Rings. I would trust Bars Leak for Cooling Systems, but not this stuff in the Engine Oil.

[Lamar]

I have never encountered Valve stem seals on a flat head six engine. Could you post a pic of the factory seals please? Thanks. Lamar

[doofus]

Well a pickle indeed. what it do, pull the head. now look at cylinder walls and piston tops especially. the tops will be coated with carbon. if there is a clean ring around the top of the piston with no carbon thats where oil coming by the rings has washed the carbon off. the wider the clean band the longer the oil has been getting by the rings. look at the valves, try wiggling them side to side. a tiny bit of movement is normal, lots of movement a no-no. if your feeling like it pull the tappet chamber covers and check that the baffles are in place around the tappets, they prevent oil from the tappets getting where it isnt needed.there are no valve stem seals on the champ "6", those are spring seats you see in book,also called horse shoe keepers and must be re-installed correctly. if you have to take it to a garage now, clean the old gaskets and spray the head gasket with copper coat and re-use in the finest CASO tradition. the tappet chamber cover gaskets take silicone nicely. Good Luck Doofus

[Flashback]

Is the crankcase breather tube working? Is it clogged? I would check it and the filler cap first. Before tearing it down, get it out and run it at the highest speed you feel comfortable with, for a good distance, at operating temperature.

[Lamar]

While you have the side cover off check the drain back holes for blockage. It will smoke like a train if the oil level builds up close to the lower end of the intake guides. Lamar

[Corvanti]

update: due to the "ol' bones" and the titanium holding them together, not much done today.

Lamar: correct. valve seats, not seals. when i talked to the "seller", i must have written "seals" on my now over 2 year note...

Flashback: Tex, I clean & oil the filler cap every time i change the oil (last was in Sept). i did it again today - no blockage at all. re: the crankcase breather tube - it appears that it has been replaced with a F.I. rubber tube with brass fittings. no metal tube in the manual and my '40 Champion i had. and i ass-u-me no "crankcase tube element" to get clogged.

Doofus: i'll check the top of the pistons if/when i remove the head.

StudeRich: i hope to change the oil tomorrow and i reckon some "Motor Flush" before the change.

the seller is a well known contributor to the forum, TW, etc. so i'm leaning towards what he said about the valves.

thanks to all for the info and welcome more!

[skyway]

While you have those side tappet covers off, make sure that the funny sheet metal "baffles" are still in place; one piece in each of the 2 tappet chambers. If they are not there, do yourself a favor and install them before you tear the engine apart.
They act to shield the valve stems from excessive oiling, and may greatly reduce your oil consumption.

[RadioRoy]

Danger! Danger Will Robinson! Do everything else you can before taking off the head.

Taking off the head is easy, but that action has spelled the doom of more flat head engines than you can count. Taking off the head is usually followed by getting discouraged and leaving the head off, which leads to the engine being seized, which leads to the engine becoming a boat anchor.

Right now the engine is running, albeit smoking, and the car is driving. Once you take off the head, there is no going back.

Be sure that you have the stick-to-it-iveness to finish the job once you dive in.

[Corvanti]

agreed "RR". that's why i said "when/if" i take off the head. it's really not that i don't know how to do it, or read how to in the manual (my 1st flathead to work on), it's more dealing with health issues that may slow down or prevent finishing in a timely manner - all the good advice given above.

i hope to get the Bar's additive and oil out & changed tomorrow.

i'm probably going to go with what Matthew told me about the valves when i bought her. "farm" out the repairs - hopefully to someone in the area that can do it correctly and in a timely manner.

that's unless a 259/289 engine and a 200R trans and other necessary parts show up in the 'cave overnight!

[BRUCESTUDE]

As mentioned above, try changing the oil, and driving hard on the highway- sometimes stuck oil rings take time to loosen up. If it doesn't fog up the neighborhood too bad, I'd tune it up the best you can and drive for now.
FWIW I had a '53 2R5 with champ 6 that smoked pretty bad, so I replaced the rings (honed the cylinders too) and replaced lower end gaskets and seals and drove it that way for awhile with no smoke or leaks (it had fairly good compression before). I did this work with the engine still in the car, old skool, kind of a pain to work on that way but a lot cheaper!

[royvaldez]

Tom always wanted to put in a 289 Studebaker motor in that 51 Bus. Coupe

[Corvanti]

per suggestion, tonight i changed the oil (with Motor Flush used per their instructions) to get the "Bar's Engine" stuff out. waited a couple hours and replaced with fresh oil.

started her up and ran to proper temp. no change, or maybe a little worse with the exhaust smoke. the oil pressure was as good as before - above 40psi at start up to around 25ish at temp and idle.

so... i reckon i'm back where i started with - the valve guides/seats.

Roy, I'd love to put a Stude V8 in her, but i think the DG-150 auto trans wouldn't handle it (or would it?). lack of $$$ right now limits what i do, as stated earlier.

i don't see anyone in the immediate area that advertises online or the Yellow Pages about machine work on a flathead. there are a couple of restoration shops nearby that may or know a "local" that does.

nicer weather here tomorrow, so i'll try to get her out of the 'cave and drive her as fast as i feel comfortable on the highway.

thanks again for all the suggestions and comments. more are welcome!

[irish]

It could be the valve guides (actually that would be too much clearance between the valve stem and guide on the intake valves causing it to burn oil), it could also be the piston rings. The rings are easy to check. First do a compression test then add a little oil (about a tablespoon or two) to each cylinder, let it set for a minute (NOT 10 minutes) and check your compression again. If the compression doesn't noticeably increase then the problem is your rings. Best of luck to you.

Joe

[nvonada]

If the compression doesn't noticeably increase then the problem is your rings.
Joe, I think you got that backwards. If the oil increases compression then your rings are leaking.