Engine: Did I get hosed with a smile???

[Hawklover]

I can take it!.............had the R-1 rebuilt...........and I later found out that new ss valves were used as was a three angle valve job, but no hardened seats were used!.............I had requested same, but "they" did what "they" thought best!............also cam bearings were not changed, when asked why??..........was told "they" were still good??

Now with an engine apart why no new cam bearings?? lazy??

But main question, will I have problem due to no hardened seats?

[PackardV8]

Sorry you didn't get what you wanted.

But main question, will I have problem due to no hardened seats?

Yes, eventually. The unanswerable question is when. Valve recession depends on RPMs and miles. A C-cab truck with a 4-speed turning a constant 3,500 RPMs on the highway will eat the valve seats more rapidly than will an overdrive car turning 2,500. If it's a hobby driver getting a few hundred miles a year, you'll probably never see the problem develop. Just adjust your valves every couple of thousand miles. If they're not closing up, you don't have a problem.

jack vines

[DEEPNHOCK]

I would question a shop that says that about cam bearings.
"good' is a subjective word.

As there are no 'new' cams readily available, the clearance for the cam bearings becomes critical, or oil pressure can be negatively affected.

Of course, it is possible they were in fact 'good'.

But how did the shop do a proper rebuild without hot tanking the block?
That cleaning process kills the cam bearings.

If the block was not cleaned/hot tanked, and the cam bearings were not changed...
What else was not done on this 'rebuild'?????

[JoeHall]

Sorry to hear of your experiences, but finding a machine shop with folks competent to work on Stude motors is a growing problem. I have had better luck buying and taking the parts to the shop, i.e. cam bearings and hardened seats. The last shop I dealt with appreciated that, since they were clueless as to where to find those items. I then review everything on the list before pickup & payment. Even given the items, they can still screw things up. Last 289 rebuild, I had to hand fit the rear cam bearing after the shop slightly collapsed it upon install.

As for the cam bearings, if the block was hot tanked, no way I'd reassemble without new cam bearings. If need be, you can probably rent an installation tool locally. If you plan to reassemble the motor yourself, you can definitely handle the cam bearings too. BUT read up on the task in the Shop Manual first.

As for the non-hardened seats, no matter what your plans for the motor, its good for at least 50,000-100,000 miles as is, but may need the valves adjusted a little more often, say every 10,000 miles instead of 15,000. At least that has been my experience.

A final note, lets just hope that shop did not leave the oil pressure relief valve in for the hot tank, or the oil galley plug out before returning it to you.
Joe H

[Mike Van Veghten]

All due respect....but why do people keep saying this..?
Joe wrote -
""but finding a machine shop with folks competent to work on Stude motors is a growing problem.""

It's got..."NOTHING"...to do with knowing, understanding or even having ever seen a Stude (a Packard, a Messerschmitt, etc.) engine before...! Plane and simple, it just got to do with the quality of the people working on the engine/parts.
Are they mechanically competent ? Do they know that when they remove a pipe plug for cleaning...do they put it back in, or when they give you a bag of parts for your assembly, is that pipe plug in the bag ? Do they even know how wide a valve seat "should" be ?

Bearing clearances, the use of hard seats or not, the "quality" of a "three angle" valve grind, the quality and surface finish of a crank shaft rebuild...All of this just boils down to knowelgable people, people that not only understand mechanical things, and how they work, but know how to run the machines that they use, they also to understand the customers desires.

Most ANY quality shop today should understand the need for hard exhaust seats in older heads (Studebaker or NOT !). Also the need for new bearings. I don't know about the lack of usable cam bearings as Jeff says, but if that's fact, the shop should have called you BEFORE you picked up the engine and explained this and asked if you knew where they could be found.
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Back to the first comment about a shop "understanding" the Stude engine.. Unfortunatly, this IS a problem. Though it NOT about understanding the Stude engine (or ANY other brand), it's about "quality" shops. Quality shops normally charge a bit more for their knowlege and experience. And unfortunatly, people choose the cheaper shop to do their work because of the size of their bank accounts. So what happens...?
1. The cheaper shop normally doesn't have the knowlege or the experience (or maybe even desire) to do a particular job correctly...so...shoddy work is the result.
2. The "better" but more expensive shop gets less and less customers and ends up going out of business because there's not enough customers to pay for quality work and keep the doors open.
Unfortunatly, I've seen this too many times in the past years.

Rant done, you may return to your normal station.

Mike

[swvalcon]

As oe said if you still havent installed the motor I would put in new cam bearings. Some of the new planet friendly hot tank cleaners wont hurt the bearings but I would still replace if possible. The seats should work if you dont put on a lot of hard miles.

[swvalcon]

As joe said if you still havent installed the motor I would put in new cam bearings. Some of the new planet friendly hot tank cleaners wont hurt the bearings but I would still replace if possible. The seats should work if you dont put on a lot of hard miles.

[DEEPNHOCK]

<snip>
Also the need for new bearings. I don't know about the lack of usable cam bearings as Jeff says, but if that's fact, the shop should have called you BEFORE you picked up the engine and explained this and asked if you knew where they could be found.
<snip>

My comment was that there are no new camshafts readily available.
So, if the cam bearing surface wears, or is worn down some, it makes good/new bearings even more important to keep the cam bearing clearances as tight as possible.

[Chicken Hawk]

Just my opinion and experience and is not what others have. I have never installed hardened seats in a Stude head. I'll be 79 next month and have driven Studes most of my life. My truck that hauled the '51 and Tomato has had the valves clearances checked one or two times and have not needed any adjustment. The '51 and Tomato have never had seats installed and the '51 had R 3 valves installed with just grinding the heads enough for the larger valves. I had a '62 259 Cruiser and was my main driver for several years and no adjustments needed. My daughter has a '63 Cruiser that she drove in high school but not much since but I have driven it many miles with no problem.

While in the parts business I sold many sets of stainless valves and only one person requested hardened seats to be installed in heads I sold. I told him I didn't think he needed them but he wanted them so that's what he got. I never had any complaints from other customers.

I will say with the quality of gas, especially in different parts of the country, it might be wise to install hardened seats if driving many miles a year or especially hard driving. Not sure if the quality of gas has anything to do with it but others may know better than I on this.

On the cam bearings I would definitely replace those or have them done and I would either check the other work of this shop or have someone do it if you are not comfortable doing it.

Again, just my opinion and experience.

Ted

[studegary]

Back to your original question of "Did I get hosed..." I guess that we wouldn't be able to evaluate that without knowing what you paid. If you got the work for free or near free, you probably did not get hosed.
It bothers me when a business does not do what you request, or at least explain why not, before doing any further work.

[Hawklover]

Jeff, The engine was not hot tanked! It was completely stripped down. Heads were machined, rods reconditioned, as were the rockers. New rod bearings, new ss valves, crank polished, valve springs were not changed, I will say that I have great oil pressure of at least 40-50 lbs while running down the road, and at least 20 lbs at idle. They cleaned the block in the shop via high pressure steam, then all ports were round wire brushed...I was not there:-(......all cyls were honed, and was told the engine would not need os rings, and standard rings were installed. Special valve stem seals were used, and I get no oil out the exhaust when I back off the gas. Please ask me any other questions that come to mind.....

I would question a shop that says that about cam bearings.
"good' is a subjective word.

As there are no 'new' cams readily available, the clearance for the cam bearings becomes critical, or oil pressure can be negatively affected.

Of course, it is possible they were in fact 'good'.

But how did the shop do a proper rebuild without hot tanking the block?
That cleaning process kills the cam bearings.

If the block was not cleaned/hot tanked, and the cam bearings were not changed...
What else was not done on this 'rebuild'?????

[sals54]

Just my opinion and experience and is not what others have. I have never installed hardened seats in a Stude head. I'll be 79 next month and have driven Studes most of my life. My truck that hauled the '51 and Tomato has had the valves clearances checked one or two times and have not needed any adjustment. The '51 and Tomato have never had seats installed and the '51 had R 3 valves installed with just grinding the heads enough for the larger valves. I had a '62 259 Cruiser and was my main driver for several years and no adjustments needed. My daughter has a '63 Cruiser that she drove in high school but not much since but I have driven it many miles with no problem.

While in the parts business I sold many sets of stainless valves and only one person requested hardened seats to be installed in heads I sold. I told him I didn't think he needed them but he wanted them so that's what he got. I never had any complaints from other customers.

I will say with the quality of gas, especially in different parts of the country, it might be wise to install hardened seats if driving many miles a year or especially hard driving. Not sure if the quality of gas has anything to do with it but others may know better than I on this.

On the cam bearings I would definitely replace those or have them done and I would either check the other work of this shop or have someone do it if you are not comfortable doing it.

Again, just my opinion and experience.

Ted

[JoeHall]

From Hawklover's original post, is seemed the motor was still apart and he was trying to figure what to do. We all offered plenty of advice to that end. We also speculated on whether he got hosed.

But from his second post, it seems we misunderstood, at least I did. Apparently its been back together and running for quite sometime, he was informed of the shops rebuild procedures, and is satisfied with the end results. He did not say how much he paid, nor if the price included reassembly, so its hard to answer the question in the title, "Did I get Hosed...???"

As for his, "main question" at the end of the text about hardened valve seats, the answer is simple--- NO.

[Mike Van Veghten]

For the what it's worth column -

My 259 powered Lark...pretty much daily driver (my only actual driver car), needs the exhaust valves adjusted three times vs. the intake.
So yes, I whole heartedly recommend hard exhaust seats.

Mike

[rkapteyn]

There is an old time engine shop in St Charles Illinois that did many Studebaker engines all the way back to 1915.
Real craftsman , slow but you can not rush perfection.

http://www.superpages.com/bp/Saint-Charles-IL/Auto-Machine-Inc-L0012864630.htm?&rwtab=1#BPreviewContainer

Robert Kapteyn