Engine: Mild cam for a champion six

[jjesien]

I've been trying to get my M5 back on the road again. The champion (185 CI) is down at the machine shop and I need to make some decisions. I have acquired an Offenhouser dual intake, two carbs, and a split exhaust manifold. From what I've read it sounds like a mild cam would really help to get some extra power out of the old flathead. Problem is I don't know where I might be able to get one anymore? I believe Bill Cathcart used to have them but it looks that option is no longer available. I'm looking for some ideas and information from those who may have been down this road already. Is a mild cam the right thing to do? Am I creating additional complications for myself? Any ideas where I might get one.

thanks,
John

[oldsalt]

In my ever so humble opinion the stock cam that was provided by Studebaker after many years of development and experience is the best bet. If the little motor is cammed up, even a little, all that really happens is that the engine will make more torque at a higher rpm than the stock cam. Camming up always means that torque is lost at the lower RPM range. Cam a little [little gain] and lose a little at the normal rpm range. Cam a lot [possible performance gain] and lose a lot at the normally used rpm range. That is OK, I suppose, if the engine is built to take a lot more rpm so a fat cam can be used. Also the breathing [induction and exhaust] must be improved to provide for the greater flow of gases at those higher RPMs. There is another problem that severely limits the little flathead motor.....there is no easy way to ever make a flathead breathe like and ohv engine. As the valves sit off to the side of the cylinder bore they can breathe using only using one side of their diameter. The valves are said to be "shrouded". Which is not much of a drawback at the RPM range the engine was designed to operate. But expecting to be able to improve the breathing you better have a flow bench and some experience with flatheads. If it were mine I'd simply mill the head. As even our current cheapest fuel at 87 octane is probably sufficient and better grades are available at every gas station. That engine was designed to run on rather low octane fuel and not 'ping'. Find out how much you can reasonably mill the head. Increased compression is GUARANTEED to increase torque at every RPM level from idle to red line and not have any reliability issues. The upped compression ratio will sharpen the exhaust note and with the cool intake and exhaust manifolds you currently have you are in business!

[PackardV8]

Agree with oldsalt as to the tradeoffs with adding cam duration. Life is about tradeoffs. Only you can decide if you subscribe to "If some is good, more is better and too much is just right!"

Find out how much you can reasonably mill the head. Increased compression is GUARANTEED to increase torque at every RPM level from idle to red line and not have any reliability issues. The upped compression ratio will sharpen the exhaust note and with the cool intake and exhaust manifolds you currently have you are in business!

As to the cam question, Iskenderian kept the masters to every engine for which they ever sold cams. Probably less than $100, they should be able to give you a street grind. Agree, mill the head to get back some of the dynamic compression a longer duration cam will cost.

jack vines

[jjesien]

Thanks for the input. It sounds like my best bet is to stick with the stock cam and focus on making it breath (intake and Exhaust) as efficiently as possible. I will also check with the machine shop to see what he thinks about milling the head to increase the compression a little bit. I had considered replacing the little six with a V8, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. The pickup is in really nice original condition and I didn't feel right about kicking the flathead to the curb. So as you can imagine, I'm trying to milk every bit I can out of it without making it unreliable. My next order of business is to figure out how to adapt a Borg-warner (Tremec) T5 to it so it will go down the road at 60 miles per hour.

Thanks again,
John

[jclary]

If you don't plan on hauling a lot of cargo, that little 185 coupled to a standard overdrive and finished off with a set of rear gears intended for the non-overdrive ...will go down the highway at 65+ mph all day long just fine. That is, if you don't live in an area with very steep hills. I've done it for nearly forty years. However, I live in the hills and have learned to keep the "kick-down" switch well adjusted.

[JohnM15]

What about a cam profile that increases low end torque since the little motor has no top end anyhow? Not that this comparable, I once had an F250 4x4 with a 351M. I wanted more low end torque so I swapped out the stock cam with a Crane high torque cam and replaced the timing gears/chain with a roller type. The crank gear could be put on the crank three different ways to advance the cam timing, keep it the same, and retard the timing. I installed the gear to retard the cam timing and the result was tons of bottom end torque with little effect to the top end.

[Alan]

Precision Cams of Montabello Ca. Did some of the cams for Morgan. He still has the masters. If you want one you had better get it soon. Us old gassers don't live forever. I have the specs. if you want them. On the 5 speed it is best to buy the adapter. By the time you find all the parts to do it yourself it will cost more than the adapter and the support plate needed is made of unobtainium.

[HUDSONBROTHER1]

Schneider cams in San Diego has ground hotter cams for my Stude V-8's ,Hudson 308 in. 6cyl flathead and even a Terraplane 6 cyl flathead. Jerry is very good to deal with and has a lot of knowlage about cams.You could also swap cyl heads for one off of a 1960 lark.This head has a better combustion chamber and higher compression. I hope this info helps.

[jjesien]

Alan, on the adapter for the T5, can you expand on that a bit? Where would someone get the adapter and associated parts? I'm looking for any pointers such as which clutch would work, throw out bearing, and can I use my clutch fork? I have read a couple of articles where the T5 was used behind a Stude V8, and I have several listings identifying the specific T5's that would work best for this application.

[kelmbaker]

I have a T-5 in my '56 Power Hawk. I had a T-5 (late 80's Chevy type) in my '62 Hawk. Both were accomplished by using the '61 and early '62 Studebaker T-10 bell housing and milling down a Chevrolet bronze pilot bushing to "fix" the input shaft difference between a Chevy tranny and a Studebaker. You can't use the Ford type tranny in this set up. There are other ways to do this. Problems? the early T-10 bell housing is not available as they have been used by so many people now they are extremely rare and expensive. The last one I have seen a person wanted over $200 for a cracked up, welded unit that I wouldn't use on a dare. I bought a full T-10 set up to just get the bell housing. I sold off the rest and recouped my money. I've been told that a mid fifties truck bell housing could be used as it has a lot of extra meat to drill for the chevy tranny. I never have done that swap, but did pick up one of these bell housings at the last meet I went to. It looks like it might work, but I don't know. I just don't know about the adapter that was being sold. One advatage is you could buy a new Ford T-5 unit. The T-5 is not a unit to heavily bang on, so a used unit be careful.

[Alan]

jj; Cathart? (spelling?) has the stuff for the 6's. Best for the money. For a V8, the adaption by SBC Tom would be the easiest and cheapest. Anything else and you will have to do some engineering.

[jjesien]

I've called and left several messages for Bill Cathcart with no response. From some of the stuff I've read recently, it sounds like Bill is winding his operation down due to health issues? If this is true, it's going to be a big loss to the Studebaker community. I'm new to this Studebaker cult, but Bill seems to have been a VERY important resource for Champion 6 rebuilds and related speed stuff etc.

[52-fan]

I have a T-5 in my '56 Power Hawk. I had a T-5 (late 80's Chevy type) in my '62 Hawk. Both were accomplished by using the '61 and early '62 Studebaker T-10 bell housing and milling down a Chevrolet bronze pilot bushing to "fix" the input shaft difference between a Chevy tranny and a Studebaker. You can't use the Ford type tranny in this set up. There are other ways to do this. Problems? the early T-10 bell housing is not available as they have been used by so many people now they are extremely rare and expensive. The last one I have seen a person wanted over $200 for a cracked up, welded unit that I wouldn't use on a dare. I bought a full T-10 set up to just get the bell housing. I sold off the rest and recouped my money. I've been told that a mid fifties truck bell housing could be used as it has a lot of extra meat to drill for the chevy tranny. I never have done that swap, but did pick up one of these bell housings at the last meet I went to. It looks like it might work, but I don't know. I just don't know about the adapter that was being sold. One advatage is you could buy a new Ford T-5 unit. The T-5 is not a unit to heavily bang on, so a used unit be careful.

All good info, but doesn't apply directly to a six. There is no T-10 bell housing for a Champion engine, but there might be a truck bell housing that could be redrilled like the V-8 guys do.

[Jeff T.]

Find a truck/taxi backing plate to bolt a V8 bellhousing to a Champion six. The hard part would be the input shaft.

Jeff T.

[LeoH]

If it were mine I'd simply mill the head. As even our current cheapest fuel at 87 octane is probably sufficient and better grades are available at every gas station. That engine was designed to run on rather low octane fuel and not 'ping'. Find out how much you can reasonably mill the head. Increased compression is GUARANTEED to increase torque at every RPM level from idle to red line and not have any reliability issues. The upped compression ratio will sharpen the exhaust note and with the cool intake and exhaust manifolds you currently have you are in business!

So where do you go to learn how much you can mill off the head? Wouldn't there be numbers out there by now of how much to take off X type block to get Y compression increase? I don't mean that question as snarky as it reads, I ask straight up.