Frame / Springs: cutting coil springs

[Pancho]

I'd like to drop the stance on my 53 hardtop. I'd like to take an inch to start and maybe end up with a 2" drop. Will this have a negative effect on the geometry of the suspension? Is there a better way to get the look I want?

[Alan]

Look and see how the lower a-arm is at ride height. I would prefer it to be parallel to the ground. After you have the geometry right, then look at the springs as to ride. An inch or 2 can be jockeyed around with tire sizes.

[rodnutrandy]

If you cut the springs ,use a cutoff wheel ,not a torch. a torch will weaken the spring ,where a cutoff wheel will not heat up the spring. Also allow a few days and a drive to settle springs before cutting again.

[dean pearson]

The thing is then you have an ugly end that doesn't seat properly.
The PO of my car did that to the front springs and it screwed up the a arms.
Consider adjustable coil over front socks???
Or,..It would be more work but possibly make the spring pockets deeper (cut and weld) top or bottom.

Dean.

[Noxnabaker]

There was a thread not long ago about modifying front suspension & it was quite serious & long & among all the stuff there was also some of this & I remember that cutting one circle does it all but two or three doesn't do any good at all.
Many has done it without any faults & I reckon you'll get more posts on this subject.

[52hawk]

I've seen spring spacers,made of steel and two long bolts.... They can be used to space the springs,or Shorten the springs,if you put them in 'backwards.' Tighten the bolts to pull two coils closer together. [JC Whitney?]

[Skybolt]

This is a subject that comes up from time to time and maybe we should get a large survey of owners who have swapped out their springs and what ride height they settled to and how it affected the ride.

The current swap for many of our Studebakers is a Moog cc655 which will give a close to standard ride height, if not the same, but with improved ride. This was published in an issue of Turning Wheels, Cooperator, a while back but I came to the same conclusion before publication by using the original specs then comparing, cross referencing and going through the formulas to double check. If you can get hold of the original specs it is quite easy from there. This way you could use this information and calculate a lower riding spring.

The cost of Moog cc655 is worth every penny. Depending on where they are ordered from the price ranges from $45 a pair to $130. This could be the same for the springs you are after. If you could get the pair for $50 then cutting your set becomes something to question. As Dean mentioned if not done right the springs can ruin a good set of lower A-arms, as you would not want to put the cut side against the chassis because once that is gone it's a problem. Studebaker used flat ground on both side. Some springs will come flat wound but not many will come with the flat grinding. It is cost prohibitive and once the spring starts to change it's shape like that it serves no other purpose except location and looks. The upside of just a flat wind at the end is lower weight.

I know it's not the answer you need for a quick job but others here at the forum have swapped in lowered springs but sometimes it's hard to get an answer.

I don't have a 53 parts manual so I can't check them against later model springs. That would be a start if you want new lower springs. If you could, or someone else, come up with that number I might be able to spend a few minutes and see if I came find something. No promises but I still have quite a bit of material for springs.

Note: Every model had different weights because of options etc... some can be used in others but not always. If you have added any weight, or taken it away, this can affect the numbers.

Len.

[Alan]

Len, I have quite a supply of Stude springs. When you look at the part number stamped into the ends then put them in a NASCAR spring tester using all the same number spring and find that they vary by almost 100 lbs. inch it is enough to drive you batty.

[Mike Van Veghten]

First, cut whole coils, not partials (e.g. 1-1/2 coils). The spring sits in "seats" in the control arms and frame. So partials coils cut....the spring will not sit correctly and possibly hurt the frame/control arm.

Second, if you know how to use/adjust a torch, it's perfectly fine to use a torch. If done correctly, the "heat effected area" will be less than a coil, and the last coils is basically dead anyway from sitting in the frame or control arm.

Third, what Alan said, the lower control arm should be about level with the ground whith the cars weight sitting on the tires/ground. Just a "little" up at the spindle is ok...no more than about 3/4" or so though.

Fourth, cuttoff wheel or torch cut....deburr the end of the last coil. A sharp edge eventually damage the "seat" area, (see #1), round the end of the spring material with a grinder.

Shorter springs can also be purchased, simillar outcome to number 1.

Be carefull removing and replacing the springs, they can mame/kill..

Mike

[Skybolt]

What Mike said about cutting with a torch is the way it is recommended in "Chassis Engineering" by Herb Adams.

This is the page with instructions of how to cut a coil spring. Doing it the way he advises will enable you to get the spring to sit flat on the bottom.

https://plus.google.com/photos/116673105435250958898/albums/6067288215731450193?banner=pwa

As Mike also advised, cleaning up of the spring end is most desirable for long life of your other components.

Alan, I find that sort of stuff to be the norm rather than the exception. I guess that's why we have testers to confirm or deny what was supposed to be components of the same specs. It would be a joy to be able to just buy stuff and bolt it all together without worrying about shimming, balancing, adjusting etc... but then where would be the fun in that? It would save many hours but I would most likely find myself modifying in some way to make it better. It's a curse and a blessing at the same time.

Len.

[Pancho]

Hey Len, The article you put up was just what I needed. Thanks for the info. I'm squirrling away all this information so when I get started I can just roll with my car's restoration. I'm sure this will take a few times of cutting and driving before I get it right. Good to know I can cut half springs too. My big fear was I had to take full coils off and that leaves little in the subtle change department. I don't want it sitting in the weeds but just a nice stance. I liked Dick's ute when I saw it at the GNR show I'll have to find the pictures I took of it.
I guess I could buy a pair of the moog springs, if they would help with the overall performance of the ride, and take it from there.
Thanks for the input! I'm getting a clearer picture all the time as what I want to do with this car. I'll take photo's along the way.

[Skybolt]

Not a problem Pancho, I have not personally cut coils so if Mike suggests cutting whole coils then he must have a reason. I was just forwarding the information I had but if that is the way Herb does it and it works for him then it must work. The thing to remember is some cars, like the ones Herb would normally be working on, have different spring pockets and therefore might be able to accommodate the half cuts. Mike might have to enlighten you on the reasons, as I said, I have not gone that route.

Rereading Mike post he makes it clear. I have also found the problem of old coils taking on a curve. Once this is set I find they want to stay that way. So, what Mike says would definitely apply to used springs, at least our 50+ year old ones.

[Skybolt]

Len, I have quite a supply of Stude springs. When you look at the part number stamped into the ends then put them in a NASCAR spring tester using all the same number spring and find that they vary by almost 100 lbs. inch it is enough to drive you batty.

Hey Alan, if I found that to be the case I would keep a record of each and place the stronger on the drivers side. Unless the whole car is perfectly balanced side to side then it might be a way to utilise the difference. If I only had to worry about 100 lbs of weight when I got in that would be easy. Knowing that the engine is offset depending on LHD or RHD might cancel out what I just wrote but it's an idea to get the front end tweaked. It might not make any noticable difference unless one was to pull a few G's in a corner, then 5-10 lbs difference might be crucial. Len.

[Noxnabaker]

In the thread about road-holding improvement it was only mentioned to only cut whole circles so maby it has a reason when it comes to Studebakers...?

[sals54]

We just did this on my son's 53 Hardtop on Saturday. We cut two coils off the front springs with a cutoff wheel and then "flattened the cut end of the spring so it would sit better in the upper pocket of the frame. I've done this several times with great success. My car below has had cut springs in it for the last 40 years. And they've been cut and recut. Still no trouble and no clearance issues. After the third coil is cut you will reach a point of diminished returns, so to speak. In other words, the coil will collapse more easily, the more coils it has. Once you cut out coils, the spring is firmer and will not collapse as easily. The car below has three coils cut. Its not quite as low as I would like, but that's primarily due to the tall original size tires. If I were to put the 205 60s back on it, it would be at least an inch lower. The three coils gives it a slight negative camber which cannot be adjusted out, but that's a condition I can live with.
BTW, we got my son's springs out, cut and replaced in about two hours. Just remove the bottom nut on the king pin, lower the control arm, (with a chain around the spring) and it'll pop right out. Back in it goes, with no change in the tie rods, toe in or caster. Just be patient putting the lower control arm back on. Use a large socket to tap the lower part of the king pin back into place, and don't lose the cork seal.