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View Full Version : Got fuel pump rebuild kit,torn rubber piece? HELP!



sbca96
09-15-2006, 06:09 PM
OK. .. I JUST got the fuel pump rebuild kit from S.I. on my porch. I
was going to yank the fuel pump off, but while inspecting the parts I
noticed this torn rubber part. Maybe I can remove it off the old one
when I tear it apart?? Is it important? Considering whats around it
it doesnt seem like its a sealing area :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_001.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_002.jpg

Tom

Mike Van Veghten
09-15-2006, 06:44 PM
Please...let me the first to state the obvious.

Send it back....! Get another one!

Why are you replacing the existing guts...because the rubber is old, torn, stiff, leaking, etc., etc.

Don't put an old hard piece of rubber on a fresh rebuild! Unless you can most definatly say..."it doesn't do any thing usefull"....replace it with a good part not a used up part....or leave it off altogether.

Mike

N8N
09-15-2006, 07:13 PM
seconded- if that area doesn't seal well, oil can get down onto the top of the diaphragm... BTDT

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
09-15-2006, 07:29 PM
Mike, Nate .. thanks for the input, and as you can probably guess I am
REALLY regretting keeping the piece of crap mechanical pump. It is
now Friday, if I send it back, and wait for another, I will miss a
show next weekend. Not too mention I was going to drive the car to
In & Out tonight to show off the seats. Where can I get that part? I
guess I can jet over to Napa and have them look. You mention its an
"AC" part .. what do you mean? Why did I blow 40 bucks on this?

Tom

sbca96
09-15-2006, 07:48 PM
Requested pictures :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_003a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_004a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_005a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_006a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_007a.jpg

Tom

Roscomacaw
09-15-2006, 07:50 PM
AC brand fuel pump. Like AC spark plugs.[:o)]

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
09-15-2006, 08:31 PM
Thanks Biggs ... I knew it was one of two things, either "AC Delco"
or AC - as in air conditioning parts.

I guess I will just drive the car tonight with the leaking pump. It
doesnt have any "extra" oil in it yet, so its a slight leak. I just
planned on driving the Avanti to In & Out to show off the seats this
evening. I hate planning stuff I can not do. Its 110 mile round
trip - wish me luck.

Tom

sbca96
09-15-2006, 09:18 PM
OK .. here is what you get for your 40 bucks. Just FYI everyone. It
didnt come with any instructions either :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_008.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_kit_009.jpg

Mike M was nice enough to send me instructions by email, he is also
helping me out with the damaged part. Hopefully can get this taken
care of next week. I am going to drive the car tonight though, going
to bring the cell phone. I have AAA towing.:D;)

Tom

Rosstude
09-16-2006, 12:38 AM
If that seal is not just right it will leak oil, BTDT.
I have used a few kits from this place, http://www.then-now.com/index.htm about $25 + shipping. I have nothing but good things to say about SI, but I am all for saving a buck where I can.
That said, all 5 of the Stude pumps I have rebuilt leak oil to some degree, some pump it out, some weep, I have found a carful application of permitex #1 around the OD of that seal helps. All pump fuel just fine though. I have taken to buying new pumps for a few more bucks, I found part number AR1-4227 at my local wholesaler for $42. They have no listing, but I gave them this number, and ordered it, I think I got the number here.

Ross.
Riverside, Ca.
1957 Provincial X2
1958 Transtar
1963 Lark. F.S.

StudeRich
09-16-2006, 03:52 AM
Ross; isn't that the standard V-8 pump, that all the Stude. vendors sell? Those are small and will not replace a "high volume" type R1 or R2 pump like Tom's (sbca96).
The problem with those is the actuating lever pivot pin is driven through the case and leaks oil. Those are Airtex copies of the original aftermarket replacement pumps made by AC division of *M.
In the day, they never were any good and they have not gotten any better in current form. The good news is they are cheap and pump fuel!Along with some oil!:([xx(][}:)] The only good pump is a original equipment Carter pump like Stude. used, they have the pin internal to the case. If you find an old one and rebuild it, it will outlast a dozen of those Airtex ones! :D[^]

StudeRich
Studebakers Northwest
Ferndale, WA

sbca96
09-16-2006, 05:49 AM
Well, I made it the 110 miles round trip without incident, checked the
oil when I got there to see if I had "extra" - all was good. Drove
home fine. Looked at it in the garage, and no fuel leaks. Now I am
wondering if the fuel was "blown back" from the supply hose. After I
plugged that vent, it looked like the supply hose was leaking from the
clamps, so I moved them and retightened. I am going to rebuild the
pump regardless - for piece of mind.

I think that number is for the standard pump, the replacement R1 pump
from S.I. is $166 bucks - thats a heck of a markup! Standard is $56
for Airtek, and $65 for Carter.

Tom

CHAMP
09-16-2006, 09:29 AM
Glad to hear the trip went well. Bet everybody loved those seats. BTW when you check the oil be sure to smell dipstick to make sure your not getting any gas in the oil.

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

Mike
09-16-2006, 12:18 PM
Tom's kit from SI looks like the same one I got, a few years ago.
Mine didn't come with the instructions that the "Cellar" says they included with the kits they sold to suppliers, either. Without those to explain the very different parts, I thought I had the wrong kit.
There are three sets of valve parts. Maybe the kit fits another pump with a three valve body, too. If there is a three valve body that adapts to an "R" pump, with the large diaphragm, I want one!
I've asked Tom to post a picture of the stem seal with the later washer, when he gets it. It looks a lot better. The spring bears against the washer and compresses the seal only until the edge of the washer bottoms out in the housing. Cellar says they sold a thousand of the kits with the flat washer, and the only problems were because of improper installation. They acknowledge that the formed washer is an improvement.
You can reuse the original mushroom valve retainers, instead of using the rivets in the kit. Likewise, the white spring he includes is much lighter than the original; and is optional. All that is explained in the instructions.
Mike M.

Mike
09-16-2006, 03:53 PM
About new replacements for "R" pumps:
My Avanti came with a modified M6270 Carter pump, when I bought it. Summit still has them, for $77.95. That's a satin finish, strip pump for small Chrysler engines. It has three valves, and 1/4" NPT ports in and out. (An "R" pump has two valves, and is 1/4" in and 1/8" out). The diaphragm isn't as big around as an "R" pump, and the valves are a little smaller. It's supposed to flow 120 gph @ 7.5 psi.
To use it on a Stude, the pump has to be taken apart, and the operating arm heated and bent. After the final heating, I think you should cool it quickly, for hardness.
I posted a diagram of the stock and modified arms, that I traced, on the Yahoo Avanti chat group. Any of the small block Chrysler pumps should convert the same.
If it's for an "R2" you also need to drill and tap the boss for the boost reference line, and plug the atmospheric vent. That's easy.
I prefer the real "R" pump; but I think this is a good substitute. I don't think it should be sold as the "R" pump without explanation. I think some vendors do; for big bucks.

Mike M.

N8N
09-16-2006, 03:58 PM
Can you just swap the arm from a "real" pump? or are there enough differences that that won't work? Do you cool the arm in water or oil?

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Karl
09-16-2006, 05:50 PM
Fairborn has R1 pumps for ninty dollars.

Mike
09-16-2006, 05:52 PM
The arm from a real "R" pump is longer and won't work with a Chrysler pump.
I don't know how to best cool the arm after bending. I know you shouldn't bend it cold. If you let it cool slowly, that's annealing it and it will be soft.
Sword makers used to impale a live captive to cool a sword properly. Maybe use an evil vendor...
Mike M.

r1lark
09-17-2006, 10:33 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mike
I posted a diagram of the stock and modified arms, that I traced, on the Yahoo Avanti chat group. Mike M.


Mike,

Could you provide the link to the diagram of the arms?

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

Mike
09-17-2006, 11:54 AM
The diagram of fuel pump arms is at:
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/avanti/photos/view/9963?b=1 .
It's a tracing of the edge of modified and stock Chrysler fuel pump operating arms; done on 1/4" graph paper. It shouldn't be hard to count squares and redraw it on a blank sheet of graph paper, if it's hard to print exactly the right size.
Mike M.

r1lark
09-17-2006, 01:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike

The diagram of fuel pump arms is at:
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/avanti/photos/view/9963?b=1 .
It's a tracing of the edge of modified and stock Chrysler fuel pump operating arms; done on 1/4" graph paper. It shouldn't be hard to count squares and redraw it on a blank sheet of graph paper, if it's hard to print exactly the right size.
Mike M.


Mike,
I couldn't access this link. Do you have to be a Yahoo member or Avanti Discussion Group member, or both to access?
Thanks, Paul

r1lark
09-17-2006, 05:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike

About new replacements for "R" pumps:
My Avanti came with a modified M6270 Carter pump, when I bought it. Summit still has them, for $77.95. That's a satin finish, strip pump for small Chrysler engines. It has three valves, and 1/4" NPT ports in and out. (An "R" pump has two valves, and is 1/4" in and 1/8" out). The diaphragm isn't as big around as an "R" pump, and the valves are a little smaller. It's supposed to flow 120 gph @ 7.5 psi.
To use it on a Stude, the pump has to be taken apart, and the operating arm heated and bent. After the final heating, I think you should cool it quickly, for hardness.
I posted a diagram of the stock and modified arms, that I traced, on the Yahoo Avanti chat group. Any of the small block Chrysler pumps should convert the same.
If it's for an "R2" you also need to drill and tap the boss for the boost reference line, and plug the atmospheric vent. That's easy.
I prefer the real "R" pump; but I think this is a good substitute. I don't think it should be sold as the "R" pump without explanation. I think some vendors do; for big bucks.

Mike M.



Here is the drawing that Mike M. references, showing the modification to the Carter M6270 fuel pump for use on a Studebaker V8:
http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10041/normal_Modified%20Chrysler%20Fuel%20Pump%20Arm%20small%20pic%20version.jpg
To get a larger version, go here: http://racingstudebakers.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=84&pos=10 and then click on the image to bring up a larger version.

Paul

Visit The Studebaker Skytop Registry website at: http://hometown.aol.com/r1skytop/myhomepage/index.html

Mike
09-17-2006, 06:43 PM
Thanks, Paul!
Mike M.

Laemmle
09-17-2006, 07:59 PM
Dave Thibeault has done all the work, he sells replacements for both R-1 and R-2..he adjusts the arm, and taps the top for R-2 examples.

I also have purchased from him pump kits and never had any problem.

sbca96
09-19-2006, 03:06 AM
Mike M has a sense of humor!! He sent me a package, but I opened it
up and didnt see the parts right way. The sly guy taped them to the
top of the box with a note "I bet you thought it was empty! Mike.";)

Anyway .. here are pictures of what SHOULD be included in the kit :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_007a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_006a.jpg

Rubber removed from special washer/holder :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_001a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_002a.jpg

inside of washer/holder :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_004a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_003a.jpg

Dime inside (size)

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_005a.jpg

Parts included in kit - some lame bin washer :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_008a.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/fuel_pump_parts_009a.jpg

I got an Email back from S.I., they apologized for the damaged part &
told me to ship the kit back to them, than they would send another, or
I could have them bill me for a new kit, and send the bad one back
after I receive it for credit. Neither of these options I liked. I asked
if they would send just the rubber part. Will see what they say.

EDIT : I will take dimensions from this part, and make a CAD drawing
so I can get a quote for making them. Maybe S.I. will be interested.

Pulled the fuel pump off tonight, I will start a new post covering the
rebuild proceedure along with the helpful instruction from Mike M.

Tom

sbca96
09-21-2006, 03:31 AM
Here is the 3D CAD model :

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/R1_special_washer_CAD1.jpg

http://www.emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/avanti_problems/R1_special_washer_CAD2.jpg

Tom

StudeRich
07-17-2009, 05:17 PM
The excellent Pics, I am sure, do not work now Tom.

Update: I unblocked something called EmperorJordan which sounded bad, so I had it blocked with Webroot AntiSpyware, whatever it was, that makes the Photos display now.

StudeRich

StudeRich
07-18-2009, 04:04 AM
So Tom; will the new improved, like the original stem Oil Seal holder ring you are making fit the Cellar supplied seal?

StudeRich

Clem64
07-19-2009, 09:03 PM
Mike M:

Sooo, where do we obtain those beautiful and necessary diaphragm stem seal metal retainer rings and replacement seals to fit in them.

Thanks, Dean

Dean Croft
Roseburg,OR

CLEM http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x56/Clem64/Clem64Forum1A.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x56/Clem64/CIMG1894sm.jpg DESEE

Mike
07-20-2009, 01:03 AM
Parts Cellar, who makes the kits some Stude parts suppliers sell,
( http://www.maritimedragracing.com/antique_auto_parts_cellar.htm ), sent me a couple of the formed seal retainers. They insist the flat washer is all that is really needed. I had gotten a kit from "SI" with the flat washer, and a kit directly from "Cellar" with the formed retainer. I asked "Cellar" to send me a retainer to make the "SI" kit usable. I've been told that the seal and retainer are actually "AC" fuel pump parts. You might try salvaging retainers from a used AC pump.
I notice in a drawing at the "Cellar" web site, a pump with a double stem seal, (four pieces). Maybe this is how the seal is normally used. Of course, using a thicker seal would also shim the diaphragm spring, which controls fuel pressure.
On R2 pumps, the stem seal has to hold the boost reference pressure from the supercharger, as well as keep oil off the diaphragm. I doubted the AC seal was up to the job. Cellar insists that it is.
Mike M.

StudeRich
07-20-2009, 06:37 PM
So Mike; does that mean that if Tom made some seal retainer rings, they would fit the current seal in the "Cellar" kits then, or is the AC seal they sent you slightly different than theirs?

They told me (at Cellar) that Carter [u]would not release</u> this special Proprietary Carter Patented "Seal" for them to re-produce it, even though they, the Federal Mogul Corp. owner of the Carter name, refuse to make ANY replacement parts for the former Carter Corp. design Pumps, OR their own! [xx(] Makes 0 sense!

I believe it was the same with the valves, so they had to make do with a washer and some rivets!

I agree, the seal does not center with that washer on there, UGH! :(

StudeRich

Clem64
07-20-2009, 11:13 PM
Thanks for the reply Mike. I too am surprised that Cellar doesn't seem to realize that their flat washer is a failure and that we need the cupped ring seal retainer for successful rebuilds.

Dean Croft
Roseburg,OR

CLEM http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x56/Clem64/Clem64Forum1A.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x56/Clem64/CIMG1894sm.jpg DESEE

Mike
07-21-2009, 08:21 AM
The "AC" type seal in the kits isn't like the original "Carter" stem seal, which is also a bearing that supports the upper end of the stem.
I think the rivets in the kits that retain the valves are a good choice. They may flow better than the original "mushroom" type retainers. You can reuse the original retainers, if you like. The kit's valve discs are like original; although I've seen old discs so dried out I thought they were formica!
I just visited the Cellar site. It appears they are molding their own seals now. I bet they are the same as the "AC" part, and that the formed washer would fit.
Cellar originally put the formed washer in their kits, (and useful instructions). They know it looks better, and may be easier to work with. They insist the flat washer is adequate. Maybe they can't get the formed washer, anymore?
Mike M.