Engine: 4 corners engine

[K-Hawk]

I opened up my other clove leaf core today. It does have dished pistons and only had some rust in one cylinder and one valve. I was able to sand enough rust out by hand that the motor turns freely very easily, all the pistons look good.
The rocker arms all moved freely, none of the lifters are rusted nor are their bores all move freely.
How can I tell if the cylinder heads from one engine are the same as another?
Yes I am thinking about trying to make this engine run.I am hoping that a nice crosshatching of the cylinder bores will remove the small amount of pitting thats left and I will be able to use what appears to be the best of each cylinder head. At the very least I now have a 289 rotating assembly to transplant into my 259.
Do the valve stems have an umbrella seal?
Will the pistons and connecting rods be marked standard-10+ and so on?
Any suggestions on building this on the cheap would be very helpful, thanks in advance.
k-hawk

[hausdok]

Hi,

It doesn't sound to me like you have a viable engine at all. It turned over easily probably because the rings in those rusted cylinders were probably compressed into their lands and rusted there. Engines with good compression don't turn easily, there's drag created by those rings as they are alternatively compressed and released as the pistons move up and down in the cylinders. If you've got an engine that spins readily with dry cylinder walls that are rusted and pitted there is no way that a hone is going to clean them up enough to make them viable. You'll need to bore it out and go oversize and that's only going to work if the machine shop can get past the rust.

Don't waste your time and money doing anything less or you'll end up regretting it. Do it right the first time.

Mike O'Handley
Kenmore, Washington
hausdok@msn.com

[JoeHall]

The following is for "shadetree mechanic" level skills and equipment: Since, "turns freely very easily" can be subjective, you may or may not want to go further with the teardown. To me, the crank in the block without the pistons "turns freely very easily" and will even freespin a little if spun rapidly. When installing the pistons, beginning with the first one, it begins to be harder to turn. With the last one installed, it turns, but probably needs leverage. An old engine will turn much easier, but probably still need at least some leverage.
If the cylinder wall pits will all but disappear with a hone its probably going to be OK. If not, it depends on their location how critical they are, i.e. the top two inches are most critical. If the cylinders clean up, it still would be safest to install new rings. Some of them may be stuck in the grooves. If so, soak the pistons in a solvent to loosen them up before trying to remove them.
As for matching the heads, look at the casting numbers. I'd turn them upside down and pour solvent into the chambers and look for leaks. If all is well, disassemble and clean up the valve stems to make sure they are very free, and INSTALL NEW SEALS. If in doubt at all with the heads, I'd have them professionally redone. Its not that expensive. Hope this helps.
Joe H

[DEEPNHOCK]

Domed pistons?
Do you mean dished pistons?

You will get out of your rebuild exactly what you put into it.
Cut corners and it will show.
The end result is that if you want to go through the effort to have the engine run another hundred thousand miles...
Then don't do a 5,000 mile cheapy rebuild.
Opinions vary, and results are a crapshoot.
You may well get lucky.
But buy the extended towing insurance option just to be sure...
HTIH
Jeff

[JoeHall]

Older terms, not often used anymore may be helpful here. "Overhaul" meant perhaps what some may now refer to as "cheapie rebuild", and was possible for a home mechanic to perform under a shadetree. Overhauls were very common in the era when our cars were actually on the road. "Rebuild" meant to make as new again, and required professional knowlege and equipment. Overhauls still have their place, as do rebuilds. For example, any showcar that has had an engine rebuild was probably a case of wasted money; an overhaul will get it on & off the trailer for the next couple of centuries. An overhaul will get a driver down the road another 50,000 miles or so, which if much farther than it is likely to be driven in the next 100 years anyway.

[brian6373]

I agree with Joe. An overhaul was was a ring and valve job, new gaskets, and a general look-over. I'd break the glaze in the cyl. and if the valves wern't sunk in the head, lap the vales. I would still plstigauge the main and rod bearings if they where'nt worn out, and measure the end-play of the crank. Of course this all depends on what the cyls. look like. If you have to use a ridge reamer to get the pistons out, then they most likely have too much taper and out-of- round to seat new rings. The bottom line is that an overhaul only works on an engine that has the wearable parts needing to be replaced, and the rest of the engine is close to specs. Like any other piece of equipment, the type of service has a lot to do with how much money to spend on getting it running. If money were no object, a complete rebuild would be the way to go. A machine shop can start eating up money very fast, with boring, alighn honing, cam bearing installation ect. An old machinest told me that you have to know where the "Point of Diminishing Returns" is . If an overhaul will only last 10,000 miles, and you are putting 1,000 miles on a year, will you still have the car in ten years? Chilton used to have a book "How To Rebuild An Engine" that had lots of pictures, and described how to check all the engine specs. without lots of specialty tools, try to find something like that to help you determine what level of restoartion you will need. Just my thoughts on this.

Brian

[K-Hawk]

Yes I did mean dished pistons. I had the cylinder heads off when I was turning the engine so compression was limited. I did not think about the rings being stuck in the lands. I had lubricated the cylinders with liquied wrench and tranny fluid. I am going to make a tool from and old distributor and fill pan with oil prior to spinning and push oil aroud in engine. I will remove the oil pan and pistions and hone them out and see what the results are. I wll replace the bearings and rings all gaskets. The valves will get removed cleaned lapped and replaced back into cylinder head if all looks ok, I will use the fill with liquid test for the valves. I just want to put an engine back togehter and have it run and put it in my studebaker.. I just need to do this. Thanks for the insight, encouragement and cautions I know they are all sent with best wishes and intentions. I will keep you all posted on what I am doing. You seem interested. I was only going to use a glaze breaking tool but a hone sound more appropriate. there does not appear to be a ridge on the top of the cylinders I just don't want to remove too much material as I am counting on standard rings to work. thanks again. K-hawk

[nvonada]

I just don't want to remove too much material as I am counting on standard rings to work.

Measure everything before you assume there are standard anything in it now. Might have been worked on before!

[jackb]

Was the car ever in "service"..? Or something in a crate ?

[jclary]

Forgive me if I am repeating something that has already been covered.(too lazy to go back and read the entire thread)
For the sake of encouragement...I have had good success in refreshing a couple of engines without boring and using oversize pistons. For this to be successful, you need minimum wear in the cylinders. A thorough check of the cylinders is best to make certain that they have not become out of round or excessively tapered from top to bottom. The fact that you say there is little or no ridge noticeable is encouraging. A good competent machine shop should be able to confirm this for you. Since I have difficulty in reading a simple ruler, I make sure to get help from someone competent in using bore gauges, calipers, and micrometers. If your piston ring grooves are OK, and no pits, cracks, etc. then you should be OK. New bearings, (don't forget the cam bearings) and a good lubrication during assembly, and I'd be comfortable you could have a good reliable driver for many miles.

You should see the dirty pages in my shop manuals. When I am working, there are two tools I can't do without. The manual and a chair. The manual provides the instructions and the chair gives me a place to park my fanny while I try to figure out what the instructions mean.

There are plenty of accomplished folks on this forum who build engines for performance and I admire those that build them so they can comfortably "Kick them to the max" with confidence. I believe some of our members could rebuild an engine blindfolded.
As for me, I am happy when they start, run, and get me back home.I can live with that.

[StudeRich]

To answer one of your unanswered questions, the Rods and Pistons will not be marked for the Rod Bearing size, however the backs of the bearing shells will be marked with the oversize if they are.

The tops of the pistons are usually marked .020, .030 etc. if they are oversize. That can be seen after cleaning the Carbon on the tops.

The clover leaf block was a new factory standard size replacement at some point, so should not be oversize unless of course over the years it was rebuilt, usually not the case. One clue may be if the inside of the pistons say "Studebaker" and Alcoa.

[K-Hawk]

What if they say studebaker and alcoa what does that mean. If I hone the cylinders out will .010 be prefered to standard. i am thinking about using the cast pistions rings as they should seat the best, what do you think. I also would like to get as much cam as possible. can I purchase a reground with an exchange or can I just purchase an r1 cam what ever will give me the power and speed. I have a 4 barrelll intake and am looking for a 500cfm something to go with the set up. I may be able to back it up with an automatic tranny so my wife can drive it. a turo 400-700r2 what is the best for around town and long drives with my wife to the beach.

[StudeRich]

What if they say studebaker and alcoa what does that mean. If I hone the cylinders out will .010 be prefered to standard. i am thinking about using the cast pistions rings as they should seat the best, what do you think. I also would like to get as much cam as possible. can I purchase a reground with an exchange or can I just purchase an r1 cam what ever will give me the power and speed. I have a 4 barrelll intake and am looking for a 500cfm something to go with the set up. I may be able to back it up with an automatic tranny so my wife can drive it. a turo 400-700r2 what is the best for around town and long drives with my wife to the beach.

Quote: "The clover leaf block was a new factory standard size replacement at some point, so should not be oversize unless of course over the years it was rebuilt, usually not the case. One clue may be if the inside of the pistons say "Studebaker" and Alcoa.

This means there is a good chance they are original, standard size, no guarantee until you measure them of course.

On a re-ring, yes you always use cast iron Rings, Chrome is for re-bores.

There are no New Cam cores, you will will have to send yours out to be re-ground to the R1/R2 specs. I think you have been told here already that a Cam won't do anything good without more compression and larger R3 Valves, springs, hard valve Seats and some serious head Porting, so if you are doing a low cost "Overhaul", it should not be in the plan. Please excuse me if you have not been told, I sometimes get the newer posters mixed up as they all have similar questions.

If your 4 Barrel Intake is a '55 to '62, it's a square bore for a Carter WCFB 4 Brl. you will need to buy a 2 Barrel Intake that has been machined to accept the Edelbrock AFB clone 500 cfm Carb. like the Studebaker '63-'64 AFB Manifolds, or a few people here on the Forum have been known to machine and bore the small 4 Brl. out to the larger AFB style for others.

The Trans. choice question will stir up many opposing positions on the subject. You can do a advanced search here for 700R4 or 2004R Trans. and get hunderds of opinions.

You will not get my opinion of either, because I prefer the Studebaker Flight-O-Matic for less than 1000 mile trips, the Overdrive will not save you enough to pay the big price of a Engine/Trans. adapter, a Trans. purchase, a rebuild and an installation.

If I were doing it, I would spend my "big bucks" on a Gear Vendor Overdrive auxillery Transmission and put it behind the Stude. Automatic and have a bullet proof setup, not a wimpy, trouble prone one. Just my humble opinion of course!

[K-Hawk]

i just went and cleaned the tops no number markings on any piston just a divit on one pistion like a broken zit exploded. Can I just use a better looking piston from another engine, Rust appears to be disoulving , much less today than yesterday??

[avantilover]

Not wishing to get too technical Rich, but how can you add this unit to a Flightomatic and how is it controlled, or do you refer to a modern trans?