PDA

View Full Version : Fuel Injection



Stude4x4
10-13-2005, 10:47 PM
I am looking for a fuel injection unit for my blown 289's. Carburators aren't doing it for me. Cold blooded in the mornings and flat spots. I have played with three different Carter AFB's and it's not working. Right now one truck has a repo R-3 intake manifold. Another one will have a Weiand or Edelbrock manifold for a chrysler. Any suggestions? Quick info, this is for my trucks that I use for towning a lot. It needs to withstand boost for longer periods of time instead of when racing. Thanks.
Jake

Dan White
10-14-2005, 08:17 AM
You will need to go with a port injection setup since the throttle body jobs cannot detect flow and can cook the engine under boost. Here are a couple of sources:

http://www.customefis.com/index.html (John makes both TBI and Port) I am getting a TBI from John for my '79 Jeep pickup.

HP Works of Colonial Beach - Colonial Beach, VA - (804) 214-9063 These guys will inject anything, from snowmobiles to hi po drag machines. They do a great job. I intend on using them for by Stude truck injection setup.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

DEEPNHOCK
10-14-2005, 08:55 AM
If and when you are ready to look at the Chrysler setup.....
Give me a shout.
I have one ready and available right now.
Some pic's are at:
http://community.webshots.com/album/261617088MGywcK

http://community.webshots.com/photo/261617088/382050085YtxPgD#

Jeff[8D]


quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

I am looking for a fuel injection unit for my blown 289's. Carburators aren't doing it for me. Cold blooded in the mornings and flat spots. I have played with three different Carter AFB's and it's not working. Right now one truck has a repo R-3 intake manifold. Another one will have a Weiand or Edelbrock manifold for a chrysler. Any suggestions? Quick info, this is for my trucks that I use for towning a lot. It needs to withstand boost for longer periods of time instead of when racing. Thanks.
Jake


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Mike Van Veghten
10-14-2005, 09:23 AM
Jeff,

Nice job.
How much are you going to ask for your spacers? Or are you only selling the spacer set and manifold as a package?

Thanks

Mike

Dan White
10-14-2005, 09:38 AM
If you are going to a port injection setup the manifold design is not as critical as it is with a TBI or carb since a port setup is not a wet-flow system, it just is a way to duct air to the intake. The injector is at the base of the manifold runner. You could just use the R3 manifold and have injector bosses welded or threaded into the manifold runners.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Alan
10-14-2005, 10:44 AM
Summit has an Accel DFI 74135B (0 30999 24135 1) T.B.I. (w/o electronics) for $325 it is a high pressure unit that you can put 85 up Mustang injectors in. Then go to Mega squirt and get their circuit boards and softwhare. For around $700 you can have a nice fuel injection set up.

Stude4x4
10-14-2005, 10:48 AM
I'm going to make my own spacers for the chrysler manifold. Last night on ebay I bought a Weiand Stealth manifold for a 318/340/360. I was told to get just the 318 but since it is listed with the others it should work right? Or am I wrong?

Dan White
10-14-2005, 11:00 AM
Alan, you cannot use a TBI with a blown system, unless you have some secondary electonics to detect flow. A TBI uses a throttle position sensor, not a Mass flow sensor.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Alan
10-14-2005, 11:17 AM
Dan, go to http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/manual/mtune.htm
Then click on Mega Squirt manual

Dan White
10-14-2005, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the info Alan. From what I have had time to read the Megasquirt system for a blown application must use a MAP (mass absolute pressure) sensor which is not common on TBI setups. This allows the system to measure manifold pressure and accordingly the boost. It also appears that Megasquirt is setup for up to 10 injectors, thus making it useable for port injection setups and it appears the way the diagrams are drawn that multiple injectors are commonly used. Megasquirt is only the controller so you could do either TBI or Port. The term throttle body is used generically in many references and does not necessarily refer to a TBI (throttle body injection). If you are going for max performance port injection is the way to go. A TBI system is still a wet-flow system and depends upon the manifold design (although less than a carb setup due to better atomization of the fuel) to deliver the fuel/air mix to the intake.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

Alan
10-14-2005, 12:51 PM
When you buy the Mega Squirt boards for $225 you also get the pre programed microcontroller and the MAP sensor. The Accel DFI comes with fuel rails some lines and fittings it is 750 CFM and has a TP sensor all set on the side.For $325 it is almost a give away compaired to some of the others I have checked out. This is for the old Heath kit people still around that are also CF Stude owners. It's a low buck do it yourself all the way. You can go crazy with port injection with screw in injector bungs and there are also press in ones that can be welded in too. But 4X was looking for a bolt on, and with his application with the Turbo would be the quickest and cheepest.

DEEPNHOCK
10-14-2005, 02:07 PM
$400 for the pair of adapters the way they are...
You can modify an air gap manifold easy enough.
This manifold is selling for $189 on Ebay all the time.
But......
The price may soon be coming way down on the adapter plates....
My steel fab guy was just over in the big city buying a water jet cutting machine. I 'teased' him about doing the port cutouts for me on these adapter plates. Then all I would have to do is make two angle cuts and drill some holes.
Wee shall see....
Jeff



quote:Originally posted by Mike Van Veghten

Jeff,

Nice job.
How much are you going to ask for your spacers? Or are you only selling the spacer set and manifold as a package?

Thanks

Mike


DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Kdancy
10-15-2005, 06:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

I'm going to make my own spacers for the chrysler manifold. Last night on ebay I bought a Weiand Stealth manifold for a 318/340/360. I was told to get just the 318 but since it is listed with the others it should work right? Or am I wrong?

Ted Harbit, Jim Lange and Dave Levesque-- all who have raced Studebakers told me not to use the large port 340-360 manifolds as they lost ET when they tried them over the small port 318. They are all the same bolt pattern and will bolt up to 318-360 as it is basicaly the same engine. As one of the above fellows described to me - you can go from small to large port, but it is when you go from the large to small port (360 size port size manifold to smaller Stude size intake ports in the head) that performance is lost. I made my plates up staying with the 318 port size.

DEEPNHOCK
10-17-2005, 10:29 AM
I completely disagree....
Ted was speaking about a spyder type open plenum manifold.
I can't comment on DL, because I have never seen him do any manifolds, or any adapters. Shoot, I couldn't even get him to do any heads for me, and I put the cores in his hands for over two years.....
I can't comment on Jim Lange either, as I have not seen his pieces....
But I won't poo-poo an idea just because someone says something somewhere, sometime...
Let's build up an idea and flog the snot out of it.
The setup that I built is not the huge port manifold setup and the port size is very close to the Stude port size (if you gasket match it). The manifold I chose to use is also a dual plane intake with a divider plenum. I have inspected Ted's extra setr of adapters and mine were built up using the heads and the manifold as a guide.
It will work just fine.
Jeff[8D]




quote:Originally posted by Kdancy


quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

I'm going to make my own spacers for the chrysler manifold. Last night on ebay I bought a Weiand Stealth manifold for a 318/340/360. I was told to get just the 318 but since it is listed with the others it should work right? Or am I wrong?

Ted Harbit, Jim Lange and Dave Levesque-- all who have raced Studebakers told me not to use the large port 340-360 manifolds as they lost ET when they tried them over the small port 318. They are all the same bolt pattern and will bolt up to 318-360 as it is basicaly the same engine. As one of the above fellows described to me - you can go from small to large port, but it is when you go from the large to small port (360 size port size manifold to smaller Stude size intake ports in the head) that performance is lost. I made my plates up staying with the 318 port size.



DEEPNHOCK at Cox.net
'37 Coupe Express
'37 Coupe Express Trailer
'61 Hawk
http://community.webshots.com/photo/42559113/426827941Lsvfrz
http://community.webshots.com/user/deepnhock

Mike Van Veghten
10-17-2005, 11:44 AM
Another thing to remember..........

Isn't experimentation what makes this hobby / sport what it is?

"I've always done it this way"....or...."so and so told me to do it this way".....

All that does stagnate learning process. To me anyway...it's fun to learn ways to make things go faster that people say "it can't be done this way because...." Sometimes I fail, usually I can squeek a little more out of an engine with just little things. The DETAILS are what many seem to miss.

With all due respect to the many that have come before me....the old proverb still stands true....."there are many ways to skin a cat"!

The ol "out of the standard box thinking" if you will.

Stude4x4
10-17-2005, 03:53 PM
So. Back to my original question. Hey Alan, just so I get this straight. I would order the Accel DFI from summit, then 85 up injectors for a Mustang. Then where & what exactly do I order from Mega Squirt? Its the control unit that I get right? Thanks. If this will work I'll go with it. I don't have a problem with modifying my manifold for the port injection. Its the best way to go.
-Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-

Kdancy
10-17-2005, 04:15 PM
quote:Originally posted by Stude4x4

So. Back to my original question. Hey Alan, just so I get this straight. I would order the Accel DFI from summit, then 85 up injectors for a Mustang. Then where & what exactly do I order from Mega Squirt? Its the control unit that I get right? Thanks. If this will work I'll go with it. I don't have a problem with modifying my manifold for the port injection. Its the best way to go.
-Jake

-Home of John Studebaker-

Jake,
I think Barlow Sopher has a FI Avanti. He is running a lot of HP but it is a streetable car. He writes some of the articles in Turning Wheels, the "modified" section.

53commander HDTP
53 Champion HDTP
61 Cursed Purple Hawk
64 Champ long bed V8
64 GT

Alan
10-17-2005, 06:15 PM
The Mega Squirt can be run even with points it is stand alone. If you want to run a Mega Squirt-Mega Spark unit for electronic ignition, a little more money. The Mustang injectors can be picked up cheep don't have to buy new ones first. The biggest hassel of the whole thing is the fuel pump and lines. Read Mega Sparks pages and check their forum it will answer most questions you would have, I printed out the manual myself because there is so much to read.

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 01:15 AM
Hi Jake, I have seen and heard some horror stories concerning what some people are trying to do. Injection is fine, and there are some non-computer hassle free units being built. the whole secret is keep your intake runners short if you are running a paxton or turbos. short runners reduce lag. presure up a tall tunnel ram with twin holleys and hope you have life insurance if things go sour.The flame show will equal that of a jet dragster, but in your face. Studebaker used a dual 4 low profile intake with twin paxtons and it worked far better than expected. Edelbrock has the finest team of people that can custom provide you with the correct injector for your application, weld on bosses and fuel lines. I would use a modified SB chrysler LD 340 edelbrock intake and the edelbrock Pro-jection system. your throttle response will be crisp, economy can be better than you expected, as you can turn pro-jection up or down. Also install a reground Colt cams camshaft W/113.5 lobe separation and 450 lift. its the C-215-S cam profile. These cams pull hard with a Paxton that is healthy. 7lbs boost is plenty. A GT hawk owner that I talked to 2 years ago found that his car ran better without the paxton. It was just too much for him when it started boosting. He ran the C-215-S cam and 4 speed trans WOW!!!!!!! Use proven methods , and you cant go too far wrong. Tom.

gordr
10-23-2005, 02:22 AM
Tom,

Where in Canada are you located? I'm near Trochu, Alberta.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 03:14 AM
Hi Gord, Iam living in Nanaimo on Vancouver Island. Tom.

gordr
10-23-2005, 06:22 AM
Tom,

I know Nanaimo; have friends there, in fact. last time I was there was last year at Christmas time, passing through on the way to/from my sister's cabin on Sonora Island.

Gord Richmond, within Weasel range of the Alberta Badlands

oldvinyl
10-23-2005, 05:27 PM
Hi Gord, If you ever Pass through this area again Please Let us know . We lived in Southwest Saskatchewan a few years back, The area you live in is very nice, I bet that youll find some nice early studes sitting around. Getting back to Injection,,,, The original problems may not be related to the carbs., Cylinder heads getting tired, heavy leakdown, I have always seen great results with any of the carb and paxton factory setups. fuel pressure problems have been one headache for many stude owners., using a pressurized system enclosed carb seems to give better results. A tired engine just doesnt respond well to being force fed. Tom.

AJCIII
10-30-2005, 07:59 AM
Just my two cents worth. I believe there is some confusion about the TBI information given. I know for sure that GM TBI uses a MAP sensor and they are available for turbocharged applications. I don't have all the details at hand at the moment but I have been researching this for use on Datsun Z cars. I agree that port injecton is preferable but TBI in most cases is an easier conversion. I am working with GM controls but have also looked into mega surt which can work with either TBI or port and uses a MAP sensor.

oldvinyl
10-30-2005, 01:50 PM
The types of Injection mentioned are both good. The Edelbrock Pro-jection unit is my choice due to simplistic installation and overall performance reliability. GMs units are great aswell, Installation will be alot longer, but worth the effort, and providing you match up all other aspects correctly. Proms may be a hassle. Edelbrock also custom provides you with all the correct advice to match your requirements, just E-mail the Tech crew, or phone them. They are really geared up for both injection systems and can get you started in the right path. Direct port injection will meet you your best overall power requirements, however keep your runners on the short side when turbocharging or other forms of boost, as lag time gets to be an issue with longer runners. All fuel injection systems require quality fuel filtration. Dont scrimp here go with water-separtor spin on filter. Mercruiser makes good filter housings and filters. Tom

Dan White
10-30-2005, 04:01 PM
I think the TBI comment was directed at my early comment about them not using MAP sensors, or other types of flow sensors. Almost all of the early after-market units and some still today, such as the Holley Pro-jection, (Tom, Edelbrock makes fuel injection systems but Holley makes the Pro-Jection ones) did or do not use MAP sensors, only TPS (throttle position sensors) to regulate the fuel flow. I know this since I used to have one. As Alan has pointed out, the Mega Squirt, and other TBI's now offer MAP setups. Those without MAP sensors should not be used for any boosted system since they cannot detect fuel flow and a lean situation could easily result. I consulted Holley when I was thinking about running a Pro-Jection on a Paxton boosted truck and that is what they told me. For my Turbo Stude truck project I plan to use a port injected setup, which I think is the way to go for this setup, but the TBI is cheaper and easier to setup.

Dan White
64 R1 GT
64 R2 GT

oldvinyl
10-30-2005, 07:57 PM
Dan you are correct its Holley, and the map sensor issues come into play.. The Holley 1000 CFM,MPI system depends on Map,Air temp, Oxegen and coolant temp. makes it impossible to boost this unit.unless there was some type of way to electronically make the system work. Your last suggestion sounds the best. Have fun , Tom.

Stude4x4
10-31-2005, 12:02 PM
I rebuilt my car again and made some adjustments and it seems a little better. This week I think I'll load the trailer up again and try pulling 8,000 lbs and see how it acts this time. I have decided that this winter I'm going to install a port injection system. I think its the only way to go, especially on turbocharged engines.

-Home of John Studebaker-