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View Full Version : Avanti power steering + 40 years = kaboom!



sbca96
10-07-2006, 07:30 PM
OK, so far I have had a crappy day. I was SUPPOSED to be at the car
show in Santa Barbara and finally meet "Starlightchamp" in person. My
Avanti had OTHER plans. I drove it to work on Friday, to wash & get
ready for Saturday. When I got home friday night, I noticed something
was leaking on the drivers side. Oil everywhere. I thought it might
be the new fuel pump, but it turned out fine. I realized it was power
steering the fluid was brown like oil, with a VERY slight red tint. I
thought that I would add a stop leak, since its been leaking a LITTLE
for a while now. This morning I added the stop leak, and went to the
car wash to clean up the car under the hood. Then we hit the road for
the show. We got halfway to Santa Barbara, & the power steering died.
I could tell by the groaning when I barely turned the wheel. After we
stopped it was obvious, I have never seen so much fluid!! It was even
coming out of the wheel on the drivers side! I cut the belt off, to
keep the pump from burning up, and we drove back home. Guess how much
fun it is to steer an Avanti without a functioning pump and 245/45R17
tires?? Actually, it wasnt as bad as I thought it was going to be, I
just felt it better to go home then continue on to the show. People
dont need to see an Avanti, 'dipped', in oil. I stopped at the car
wash AGAIN when we got home, and cleaned up the HUGE mess (made the
first one look like childs play) & drove home. I THOUGHT that being
disconnected, the pump would stop leaking - but NO!! When I got home
it was obvious that it wanted to keep leaking, so I removed it. I blew
through the pressure line and forced the fluid out of the system. Off
to the car wash I went AGAIN! I drove back home, and there was STILL
fluid coming out of the hoses (oh and the pump is leaking on the floor
in the garage[:I])- in a drip pan;).

So, the pump is off, the main pressure hose is looking pretty sorry. I
guess I need to order the repair kit from SI. It comes with a rebuild
kit for the pump, & the ram, & all the hoses.

Who are the experts on THIS repair? I might as well to a tech article
on the power steering too! I WANTED to replace the box with a quicker
one, but I guess I will do the shorter arms like others, and increase
the caster to fix the darting.

Oh the joys of Studebakering!!;)

Tom

'63 Avanti, zinc plated drilled & slotted 03 Mustang Cobra 13" front disc/98 GT rear brakes, 03 Cobra 17" wheels, GM alt, 97 Z28 leather seats, soon: 97 Z28 T-56 6-spd, Ported heads w/SST full flow valves, 'R3' 276 cam, Edelbrock AFB Carb, GM HEI distributor, 8.8mm plug wires

John Kirchhoff
10-07-2006, 10:14 PM
What do you know, I've been working on the power steering today also. A while back I replaced the seals in the cylinder and is easy once it's apart. I had to use one of the tie rod separators that uses the bolt that pushes on the tapered shaft of the ball joint. No room for the fork type sperators to work. I had a so called Stude seal kit and while the seal it self worked, the plastic spacer between the seal and circlip was too thick, so I had to reuse the old one. You will need to have the pump functioning so you can pressure the old seal out. Getting the pitman arm off to get to the control valve isn't any fun. There's not much room to work and I ended up dropping th exhaust pipe and removing the starter. There was no room to get a regular gear puller in there, so I spent several hours making my own puller out of a bolt, nut, 1/4" steel plate and a bunch of welding. It's not very pretty but it did work fine. Tomorrow I plan on working on the control valve. If you need hoses, take the old one to an auto parts store or Caterpillar dealer and they can make them cheaper than stock parts. Good luck, nothing really hard, just very tedious.

Karl
10-08-2006, 02:34 AM
Hi Tom , Something must be in the air. The pump on my 64 died yesterday.:(Ordered a seal kit and pressure hose from S.I.Your right, I didn't think they could hold that much fluid.[:0]We just call it Studebaker rust prevention:D.

63 Twin Supercharged Avanti
64 Avanti R3w/NOS
88LSC Avanti 350 Supercharged w/NOS

sbca96
10-08-2006, 02:54 AM
Wow, sounds like a pain. I worked on my dads '64 Hawk power steering
some years ago, only changed the hoses and rebuilt the pump itself. I
am hoping to avoid doing the ram or the control valve for now.

After I posted the above, I thought of a way to stop the fluid from
coming out of the hoses, I pushed the flare into the return hose and
slapped a clamp on it. That worked pretty good. I think I might have
another leak though - not power steering. The news gets better and
better each day. Might be the oil seal in the freshly rebuilt fuel
pump. I will pull the vent out tomorrow and take a look inside.[xx(][V]

Oh, get this, after I got the fluid stopped from the hoses, I went to
the car wash AGAIN to clean up .. thats 4 times in one day .. at the
car wash there was a bunch of vehicles there due to a shooting at the
gas station next door (no, not a common occurance) .. then this idiot
starts backing up and I had to jet into reverse and gun it to move the
car back to avoid him, all the while reving the gaspacks to get his
attention .. he ALMOST hit me!! (No the horn doesnt work). Had I not
done that, he WOULD have hit me. God, I was shaking after that. Big
ol van conversion. I JUST got that bumper straightened and rechromed.

Edit:
Hey Karl .. you were typing while I was typing. Yah .. I think that
the Studebaker power steering system holds 42 quarts of fluid. Thats
just a guess, but I cant be too far off.;)

Tom

studeclunker
10-08-2006, 05:33 AM
I have a Daytona wagon with power steering. The return hose split and I got out the books to see how to fix the problem.
Are you ready for this?
To remove the hoses on the valve control (Bendix) it's necessary to remove the motor. Yeah, to replace the hoses the motor has to be pulled. Nothing but fun.[}:)] After I replaced the return hose, the new one broke too. Oi.[V]

If it's necessary to remove the pitman arm the recomendation is the same; remove the motor. Fun, fun, fun.:(

Lotsa Larks!
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Studebaker!
Ron Smith

Mike
10-08-2006, 08:50 AM
I replaced my PS hoses and rebuilt the control valve and pump, a while back.
I recommend removing the reach rod and control valve if you are going to replace hoses. I would replace all four hoses. While it's out, replace the seals in the control valve.
It's also a good time to replace the pitman arm shaft seal, in the steering box.
Here's the puller you need for the pitman arm: http://www.autozone.com/in_our_stores/loan_a_tool/pullers_specialized/pitman_arm.htm . I bought one that looks exactly like it from J. C. Whitney; but I don't see it in their current catalog. It's a very common cheap tool. You need to replace the screw with a short bolt, reversed so the head will bear against the shaft. Mine was 5/8" fine thread. That way there is plenty of room. The shaft isn't tapered and mine came apart easily.
I used a "pickle fork" at the bell crank end of the reach rod. I didn't want to just unscrew the control valve from the reach rod. Total length is important, to center the steering.
Since your Avanti is a '63, it may actually have the pressure and return hoses pictured in the parts books and the SI catalog. They have a straight tube, extending forward, at the control valve; and route up behind the steering box.
Replacement hoses, including the ones I got from SI, aren't like that. The tubes curve to the rear at the control valve. The flexible hose curves up and forward, around the front of the steering box.
I posted pictures of the hose positioning on the Avanti yahoo site. It's easiest to tighten the hoses at the control valve on the bench; and train them into position as you install the reach rod and control valve assembly.
Mike M.

Roscomacaw
10-08-2006, 04:16 PM
I'm confused....

"Guess how much
fun it is to steer an Avanti without a functioning pump and 245/45R17
tires?? Actually, it wasnt as bad as I thought it was going to be,..."

Then, from 05/12/2006 .....

"Its 'funny' that you guys are saying that the wider tires are harder
to steer. I noticed the complete opposite."

"The Avanti got the 245/60's, and then I recently went to 245/45's on
a 17 inch rim .. that made it easier to steer."

[?]

I want to add PS to my 58 wagon. But from what I read earlier, maybe I could just get the same effect by going to wider tires. Which is it?

Miscreant adrift in
the BerStuda Triangle!!

1957 Transtar 1/2ton
1960 Larkvertible V8
1958 Provincial wagon
1953 Commander coupe

sbca96
10-08-2006, 06:37 PM
Biggs, thats with an operating PS setup. When the PS stops working,
things change quite suddenly. I think its because the power ram is
adding extra resistance now, since there is no pressure coming from
the PS pump. Now, when I turn the wheels, I extending & compressing
the ram, and forcing the fluid in and out of it. Its actually got
easier to steer as the fluid keeps getting forced out. My 60 Hawk
was manual steering, and I noticed it got easier to steer when I went
from the 195/75R15 to the 245/60R14 tires. The Avanti felt easier to
steer when I went from the Hawks 245/60R14 to the 245/45R17. It could
be advanced tread design? I dont know.

I cant believe how sore I am today. I was supposed to cut the hole in
the wall in the back of my garage today, but my back doesnt seem to
like the idea of holding a circular saw over my head.[xx(]

Mike M, so the SI hose route differently then whats on the car now? I
dont frequent the Avanti Yahoo group, can you email me the photos, or
send me the link? I wasnt too pleased with the routing of the hose,
it made the metal end on the pressure hose vibrate against the inner
fender on the Avanti. Does that mean that the engine doesnt have to
be removed - as was a previous post? It that thing is coming out, I
am tempted to just remove the ram, and plug all the flared ports in
the control valve. Then muscle it around for the time being!!

Tom

sbca96
10-09-2006, 03:44 AM
What a day. It seems that the oil seal in the fuel pump has failed
and there IS oil coming out of the vent also. So the rebuilt fuel
pump needs to be opened up again, and the power steering is broke. I
went to buy some hose pinchers from Kragen to make it easier to take
the fuel pump off and not worry about gas pouring out, and when I got
home I noticed that someone hit my 93 Camaro Z28 while it was parked
in the street. Yah, this is the same one that my wife slammed into a
curb two weeks ago. The impact is 18 inches to the bottom of the hit,
so it was likely someone in an SUV or truck AGAIN. Last time it was
hit in a parking lot and they drove up ontop of the hood. I think
the insurance company will part it out, the blue book on a 93 Camaro
Z28 with over 200,000 isnt worth a new front clip. Thats what it is
going to need, the nose is crushed in, and the drivers fender has the
front edge broken off. I can not even relay the level of anger. My
wife got into it with a neighbor because he left a note on her Camaro
for parking on the side of his house overnight. She explained to him
that he DOESNT own the street, and the next time we see him dumping
hazzardous fluids down the storm drain we WILL call the police. I lost
it, punched a hole in the door to the garage, and then went out & cut
the hole for a rear facing garage door. My adenline level was so high
I didnt even feel the pain from yesterday - or my hand. Got the hole
cut, the Avanti back into the garage where its safe. Broke up the old
stucco from the wall. Need to do finishing, but having the door on
helped keep the dust out of the garage. Looks like my temper returned.

Tom

sbca96
10-09-2006, 05:30 AM
Pictures of the car :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28_hit/Camaro_hit01.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28_hit/Camaro_hit02.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28_hit/Camaro_hit03.jpg

Pictures of the new hole :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/garage/cut_hole01.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/garage/cut_hole02.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/garage/cut_hole03.jpg

Tom

John Kirchhoff
10-09-2006, 09:04 AM
Hey buddy, I feel your pain. Been in the same boat before. Just try to remember that one of these days, everything is going to start going your way. Life seems to be like balance scales; everything evens out eventually, so just hang in there for now. Oh, sometimes there's nothing like a good old fashioned hole cuttin' to vent some frustration!

sbca96
10-09-2006, 12:16 PM
Yes .. its funny, I didnt HAVE to break up the part that I removed
with a sledge hammer ... but DANG it felt good!:D;)[}:)]

Tom

CHAMP
10-09-2006, 03:16 PM
Tom your luck has got to change for the better, and when it does maybe you can look back and be glad it's over. I'll be pulling for you!

GARY H 2DR.SEDAN 48 STUDEBAKER CHAMPION NORTHEAST MD.

53k
10-10-2006, 07:41 PM
quote:Originally posted by studeclunker

I have a Daytona wagon with power steering. The return hose split and I got out the books to see how to fix the problem.
Are you ready for this?
To remove the hoses on the valve control (Bendix) it's necessary to remove the motor. Yeah, to replace the hoses the motor has to be pulled. Nothing but fun.[}:)] After I replaced the return hose, the new one broke too. Oi.[V]
If it's necessary to remove the pitman arm the recomendation is the same; remove the motor. Fun, fun, fun.:(

Where did you hear or see that the engine has to be removed? [?][?] I replaced the return hose on my '64 Avanti last year working on by back under the car. I had trouble threading the fitting in to the control valve, but otherwise it was no problem. Also, I removed a power steering system from one car and installed it on my '64 Daytona Wagonaire without pulling either engine. I didn't use any kind of puller to remove the pitman arms either.
When I ordered my Wagonaire I didn't order power steering because my '61 Cruiser didn't have it and I didn't see a need for it. Well, I was wrong about the wagon. So, I found a wrecked '64 Daytona hardtop with a complete set. I took off the pitman shaft nut and found that the arm didn't come off easily (pretty green then). So, I went up to the salvage yard office and asked if they had a puller I could borrow. The man there said "come with me sonny. I'll show you how to get that off". He grabbed a big pry bar and a four-pound hammer and took off. He put the pry bar down against the inside of the pitman arm and put pressure on it. Then he whacked the pitman arm a couple times at the shaft and the arm popped right off. He used the same technique on the tie rod ends and it worked there too. When I got home, I applied the technique to get the manual steering pitman arm and tie rods off my Wagonaire. It worked just as slick for me as it did for him.
Tomorrow I'm replacing all four hoses on my Wagonaire (one of the 42-year-old hoses finally blew out). I'll report on whether or not I succeed in changing them without pulling the engine or pitman arm assembly.:)


[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

John Kirchhoff
10-10-2006, 09:40 PM
If pounding with a big hammer has worked for you, more power to you. Maybe I'm just no good at swinging a hammer, but I'd have something broken doing that. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but the problem in whacking the pitman shaft is that when you do so, the energy from the impact doesn't stop at the pitman arm, but instead travels through the shaft, hits whatever is immovable at the end (cam lever screw, sector shaft cover and bearing or gearbox casting in this application), is reflected back through the shaft and then hits the arm, popping it off if you're lucky. That's how the arm is "pushed" off the shaft towards the end being struck. Anyone who's knapped flint making an arrowhead knows what I'm talking about. Flint or chert is very hard (a relative of glass) and the little rounded "bulb of percussion" left after a piece pops off is the focal point where the energy reverses direction and takes the top layer of rock off with it. That's why I shuddered a while back when someone mentioned striking a rear axle to pop a brake drum off. It isn't the inertia of a swinging 4 pound sledge that's the problem, it's whatever solid piece that serves at the focal point to reverse that inertia. With a puller, the only compression is in the area from the end of the shaft to the arm and that's a steady compressive force and not a sudden impact. But on the bright side, you can't swing a sledge with the engine in place. I guess that's nature's way of keeping us from tearing things up!

studegary
10-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Tom - I feel sorry for your loss. It is terrible when something like this happens. Takes me back to when I had two cars (Studebaker and Dodge) hit when they were legally parked in front of my home, where I used to live. I was able to track down a redi-mix concrete truck that did the damage. Of course, the insurance company only wanted to give me $50 for a complete, driving '53K.
Is your Camaro legally registered? I thought that California used a front license plate.

Gary L.
Wappinger, NY

1959 DeLuxe pickup (restomod)

showbizkid
10-11-2006, 12:13 AM
quote:Originally posted by studegary

I thought that California used a front license plate.


We do. But a lot of us leave it off 'cuz it's ugly (or to foil the red light cams [:0] )


[img=left]http://members.cox.net/clarknovak/lark.gif[/img=left]

Clark in San Diego
'63 F2/Lark Standard
http://studeblogger.blogspot.com

Skip Lackie
10-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Tom-
A few anecdotes that, while not making you feel better, may at least help you to realize you're not alone.

Number one: I also have a similar-vintage Camaro Z-28. The bracket for the front license plate is particularly ungainly and really ruins the looks of the car, especially since only the Z-28s have the red bow tie emblem in the middle of the grille. So, like Tom, I left the front (DC) license plate off the car. Result: a $75 ticket for no front plate while the car was parked on the street in Arlington, Virginia.:( (The front plate has been on the car ever since.)

Number two: All my cars are garaged these days, but last year I was having the house painted, and the painters used one garage space for storing stuff overnight. It was the only time my Camaro had been parked on the street. Result, my across-the-street neighbor backed out of her driveway and sideswiped it.[:0] She paid for it of course, but having to deal with insurance companies and body shops is always a hassle -- and the new paint isn't QUITE the same shade . . . .

Number three (happier story): Several years ago I had more cars than garages, and I was parking a rust-bucket Lark on the street. At around 2 AM we were awakened by crashing and crunching noises from outside. A young couple in an old Ford Fairlane, high on some drug, sideswiped a car parked on the street a couple of houses down. They then crossed the street and drove up over the curb (breaking the RF suspension and blowing out that tire) and ran into my next-door neighbor's house. They backed out across the lawn and tried to go forward. The skid marks from the blown tire showed they missed my Lark by inches and hit the car parked in front of my other next-door neighbor's house. By that time they had lost all their coolant and the Ford's engine overheated and quit. Result: damage to three of my closest neighbor's property, and none to mine.[:I] BTW, I parted the Lark out later that year.

Skip Lackie

53k
10-11-2006, 10:02 AM
quote:Originally posted by John Kirchhoff

If pounding with a big hammer has worked for you, more power to you. Maybe I'm just no good at swinging a hammer, but I'd have something broken doing that. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but the problem in whacking the pitman shaft is that when you do so, the energy from the impact doesn't stop at the pitman arm, but instead travels through the shaft, hits whatever is immovable at the end (cam lever screw, sector shaft cover and bearing or gearbox casting in this application), is reflected back through the shaft and then hits the arm, popping it off if you're lucky. That's how the arm is "pushed" off the shaft towards the end being struck. Anyone who's knapped flint making an arrowhead knows what I'm talking about. Flint or chert is very hard (a relative of glass) and the little rounded "bulb of percussion" left after a piece pops off is the focal point where the energy reverses direction and takes the top layer of rock off with it. That's why I shuddered a while back when someone mentioned striking a rear axle to pop a brake drum off. It isn't the inertia of a swinging 4 pound sledge that's the problem, it's whatever solid piece that serves at the focal point to reverse that inertia. With a puller, the only compression is in the area from the end of the shaft to the arm and that's a steady compressive force and not a sudden impact. But on the bright side, you can't swing a sledge with the engine in place. I guess that's nature's way of keeping us from tearing things up!

I certainly can't argue with your very logical explanation. However, I didn't use the right terminology or explain exactly how the hammer was used. "Tap" is a better word than "whack". With the pry bar pressure on the pitman arm as close to the shaft as possible, very little striking force was needed. And, the tap was on the side of the pitman arm, not on the end of the shaft. With the pry bar pressure on the other side, I doubt if much force was transmitted to the gear box. Tapping the side of the pitman arm at its junction with the shaft allows the removal to be accomplished without removing the engine. I didn't even have to take off my disk brake booster to apply the bar or tap the arm. Anyhow, I have put 90,000 more miles on the gear box since the transplant with no gearbox problems.
Applying 20-20 hindsight, I should have taken the entire gearbox instead of removing the pitman arm. I didn't realize then that the V-8 Wagonaire manual steering box was the "slowest" of any Studebaker (5 1/4 turns).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

John Kirchhoff
10-11-2006, 11:55 AM
Thanks for the clairification! Maybe I should have tried that over the weekend instead of taking time to make my own puller. But then again, I've never been known for doing something the easy (or smart) way!

sbca96
10-11-2006, 05:25 PM
Thanks Skip, I know that it happens, its just frustrating when I have
a 110 round trip commute to make each day, & thats one of my drivers.
That, compounded with the fact that its been hit by an SUV/truck once
before, and a year ago the drivers window was smashed by some fans of
the 'JackA$$' movies who have been preying on local residents (as told
to me by Lompoc Police). Yes, front license plate is required, but it
didnt seem to bother the Officer that made the report. He was looking
at the damage, and had to walk to the back of the car to get the plate
number - so he was "aware". Then you add the Avanti breaking (again)
and other issues I wont even get into right now, & you can see why its
good that I had a wall I needed to demo.

As for the wacking of the hub puller, I have used that technique on a
few cars, and this axle itself quite a few times. You dont have to do
an over the shoulder swing at it (I would NOT recommend that!), but a
good solid blow (thud) to the puller, and the shock/vibration will get
that tapered axle hub loose. As for the pitman arm, I have used a
ball joint separator before. Between the box and arm. The ball joint
fork doesnt have quite enough "spread", so some grinding is required.

After thinking about it, I remember replacing all the hoses on our '63
Wagonaire. That didnt require removal of the engine either. The Hawk
was a pain in the behind though. Its been offered to me to remove the
pitman arm WITH the hoses attached, and the opposite ends removed from
the pump and power ram. I have seen a tool at Autozone that pushes on
the tierod end threaded shaft and pops it out without damage to the
rubber boot or the internal ball. Will that fit over the reach rod at
the bellcrank?

Tom

Mike
10-11-2006, 06:23 PM
My tie rod end puller is the type with a screw that bears on the end of the stud. There just wasn't room for it, on the end of the reach rod at the bell crank. I used a pickle fork, and hammer. There may be room for the type of ball joint puller that is made up of two levers that are forced apart by a screw. The joint is a tapered stud, like the tie rod ends.
The best pitman arm puller is the one I provided a url to above; with a short, reversed screw. If you have had yours apart, you may find you don't even need a puller. The shaft isn't tapered.
Getting the reach rod loose at the bellcrank was the hardest part of removing the control valve and hoses as an assembly; and it really wasn't that hard. It's much nicer working on the assembly on a bench, rebuilding the valve and replacing hoses.
Mike M.

53k
10-11-2006, 10:06 PM
quote:
...Tomorrow I'm replacing all four hoses on my Wagonaire (one of the 42-year-old hoses finally blew out). I'll report on whether or not I succeed in changing them without pulling the engine or pitman arm assembly.:)

Well, today I STARTED replacing the hoses with the engine in the car and the pitman arm in place. I did get all four hoses off, but I have to say it was a chore. The hardest one to get off the control valve was the return line (on top the control valve and against the pitman arm). A set of "stubbies" would have made it easier as I could only get a fraction of a turn with my regular end wrenches. I started to install one of the steering hoses (control vale to ram), but I couldn't get it threaded. I finally regrouped and checked the pipe part against the old hose. Turned out that it was bent wrong. There wasn't any way it could clear the side of the control valve and still screw in. I was able to straighten it enough to work, but I decided to check the other hoses. Every one was off in the pipe bends, a couple on both ends. These were hoses I bought from Jon Myer who I consider to be a very reputable vendor. The pump end of the return hose was WAY off and I didn't try to re-bend it. I happened to have another hose from SI that had the correct bend. Even stranger, for some reason I decided to blow through one of the steering hose. I couldn't blow through it so I took it up to my shop and applied 110 pounds of air with an air gun. Still nothing came through. I am really puzzled as to how a new hose with no apparent damage could be completely clogged. Needless to say, I tried blowing through the others (all ok). Anyhow, I really needed that particluar one because that is where the old line blew out. So, until I get another line, I'll have to work on something else. Yes, I ordered by part number and the tags on the hoses matched exactly to my car.
The irony of the whole thing is, I had taken the hoses to the man who rebuilt the engine and asked him to install them when the engine was out. He got sick and barely finished the engine and, of course, the lines didn't get installed. It sure would have been easier then.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

sbca96
10-12-2006, 02:41 AM
So .. from that it sounds like the SI hoses are a good purchase.;)
I wonder what is blocking that one hose?!?! I guess I will call SI
tomorrow & order the "kit". I have been preoccupied with the damage
to the Camaro, I have an appointment 25 miles away at 9pm, that I had
to take a vacation day (last one of the year) to go do. I dont know
if I mentioned, but the wife wacked a curb and bent the knuckle/upper
and lower a-arms, which will make that 25 miles a little scary. I got
under the car tonight and got some more toe-in by shortening the tie
rod on the drivers side. Who knows how close I got.

Mike .. the bellcrank end on the reach rod moves back and forth, it
doesnt come clear to get at during any of its travel??

Tom

Mike
10-12-2006, 04:55 AM
Paul,
Are the Lark hoses like the Avanti? Check out the pictures in "Files" at the Avanti Yahoo site. The one of the hose layout under hood should look familiar! It was much appreciated since my car is black. Black hoses, engine, and fender apron = invisible hoses.
Suppliers are playing fast and loose with Stude part #'s. Did you try threading a wire into the plugged PS hose, to see where the blockage is?
Mike M.

53k
10-12-2006, 08:32 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mike

Paul,
Are the Lark hoses like the Avanti? Check out the pictures in "Files" at the Avanti Yahoo site. The one of the hose layout under hood should look familiar! It was much appreciated since my car is black. Black hoses, engine, and fender apron = invisible hoses.
Suppliers are playing fast and loose with Stude part #'s. Did you try threading a wire into the plugged PS hose, to see where the blockage is?
Mike M.

Yes. the Lark hoses are the same as Avanti, The Myer parts have a nice tag with the Studebaker part number and the application which includes all Bendix-equipped Larks and Avanti. I had bought the SI hose years ago to carry as an emergency spare in the Wagonaire. I used the return line last year to fix the leaking hose on my '64 Avanti (sold).
I tried a wire, but the bend in the pipe was too sharp and I couldn't force it in more than three or four inches (or that was where the plug was, one or the other).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

53k
10-12-2006, 04:15 PM
quote:... These were hoses I bought from Jon Myer who I consider to be a very reputable vendor. The pump end of the return hose was WAY off and I didn't try to re-bend it. I happened to have another hose from SI that had the correct bend. Even stranger, for some reason I decided to blow through one of the steering hose. I couldn't blow through it so I took it up to my shop and applied 110 pounds of air with an air gun. Still nothing came through. I am really puzzled as to how a new hose with no apparent damage could be completely clogged. Needless to say, I tried blowing through the others (all ok). Anyhow, I really needed that particluar one because that is where the old line blew out. So, until I get another line, I'll have to work on something else. Yes, I ordered by part number and the tags on the hoses matched exactly to my car....
My faith in Myer's Studebaker is restored. I sent the bad hoses back via a couple guys who were going there today. When I called this afternoon, Linda had already processed a credit for me on the one with a bad bend and was ready to send me the replacement for the defective one. Naturally, I had to order some other stuff too:):).

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

sbca96
10-12-2006, 05:47 PM
According to Studebaker International, the 64 Lark is the same as the
63 & 64 Avanti. The 61 through 63 Larks use a different pressure and
return hose, but the same right and left hose.

I was surprised at the price for the steering box seal (16 bucks), it
isnt leaking (as far as I can tell) so I dont know if I want to pay
the extra cost right now. Do I risk disturbing something thats not a
problem right now[B)]? They carry the quick steer arms, so I am very
tempted to change those, I would also like to swap my tie rods from
the 60 Hawk over. Does anyone see a problem with that? The reason is
that the long/short with short adjuster is a Studebaker only part. The
early style short/short with long adjuster uses common GM truck tie
rod ends that you can get anywhere. Considering SI price of $95 long
and $38 for short I would rather get Moog parts for 15 bucks. I also
found that I am missing pump bracket 1549568P & both the special bolts
to mount the pump. It has threaded rods, a tube and washers to mount.
I found that the R1 I picked up a little while back has one of those
special bolts, the longer one, so I might rig something for the short.

I just got back from the insurance adjuster, & they only gave me 1700
dollars to fix the 93 Camaro. Its not going to be easy. Most of the
salvage yards that HAVE the right years, the cars have front end hits.
Other then groaning from the rack&pinion, the car made it there & back
without any problems. I miss the old girl.

Tom

PalmerGA
10-13-2006, 12:05 PM
Ahhh... the often unappreciated joys of manual steering. :D

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

sbca96
10-13-2006, 12:18 PM
Its a love/hate. I had manual steering on the 60 Hawk for 10 years,
and it was fine. Pretty slow, but trouble free. I want the faster
steering arms, so power is really required. Hard to win here.

Tom

53k
10-13-2006, 01:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by PalmerGA

Ahhh... the often unappreciated joys of manual steering. :D

Jim's pride....
1963 Daytona Convertible

Exactly why I am very happy with the '64 Daytona convertible below. It has manual steering and dual master cylinder non-power brakes with finned drums. There's so much room around the engine that I can change the sparkplugs in maybe 10 minutes and I'm slow:D.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

53k
10-13-2006, 01:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

Its a love/hate. I had manual steering on the 60 Hawk for 10 years,
and it was fine. Pretty slow, but trouble free. I want the faster
steering arms, so power is really required. Hard to win here.
Tom
A few months ago I gave an old friend a power steering bellcrank for his manual steering Avanti. His reason for going to power steering made sense and I hadn't really thought about it before. He said that the Studebaker steering systems were made for narrow, bias-ply tires. With installing wider rims and radial tires, a much greater strain is placed on the steering and some of the boxes (like the Avanti 16:1) are unobtainium. He plans to drive his Avanti for a long time (already has had it for 25 years) and he doesn't want to break the box.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

sbca96
10-13-2006, 05:08 PM
A manual steer Avanti?? That sounds like a 4 wheel drum brake Avanti.
That is factory? I thought MY Avanti was the most "base model" that
they came, since it has that darn T86 3 spd manual. Didnt all Avantis
come w/power disc brakes, power steering, radius rods & rear sway bar.[?][?]

Tom

41 Frank
10-13-2006, 06:31 PM
sbca My friends 63 Avanti R-2 here locally has no power steering, came that way, has P/B though

N8N
10-13-2006, 06:47 PM
yes on all but the power steering I believe.

nate

--
55 Commander Starlight
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

sbca96
10-13-2006, 06:56 PM
OMG!! You know what this means?? My Avanti has ... an OPTION!!:D;)

Tom

sbca96
10-13-2006, 06:57 PM
Too bad it broke ......[V]

Tom

53k
10-13-2006, 07:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

A manual steer Avanti?? That sounds like a 4 wheel drum brake Avanti.
That is factory? I thought MY Avanti was the most "base model" that
they came, since it has that darn T86 3 spd manual. Didnt all Avantis
come w/power disc brakes, power steering, radius rods & rear sway bar.[?][?]

Tom

Power steering was an option on all Studebaker Avantis. Non-power was a fairly slow box. A no-cost option was fast manual steering- the 16:1 (three turn) box which was the same as the power steering model. The '63 R-2 4-speed I had a few years ago was ordered with fast manual steering, heavy duty springs and shock, 3.73 TT, and heavy duty clutch. The original owner wasn't happy with the Gabriel shocks so he put Konis on it. While it was a bear at low speeds with radials, it was a handling fool. You don't realize how much slop there is in the power steering until you drive a fast manual setup.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

sbca96
10-13-2006, 09:16 PM
3 turn box? I am learning a lot on this thread. I thought the best
(fastest) box that Studebaker offered was the 4.5 turn box. I have
never counted the Avanti turns, but it sure seemed like a lot. Then I
AM comparing it to my rack&pinion Camaro and 2.5 turn Impala. You are
sure the box is 3 turns?? It sure doesnt seem that fast. I was told
that with the quick steer arms it would get the steering down to 3.5.

Tom

sbca96
10-13-2006, 10:13 PM
Curious. Anyone have the dimensions of the thick spacer bolt for the
power steering pump. Its the one that the pump pivots on. If memory
serves its about an inch or more thick, with a 5/16-18 threaded stud
on one side & a 5/16-24 thread stud on the other.

Tom

53k
10-16-2006, 06:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by sbca96

3 turn box? I am learning a lot on this thread. I thought the best
(fastest) box that Studebaker offered was the 4.5 turn box. I have
never counted the Avanti turns, but it sure seemed like a lot. Then I
AM comparing it to my rack&pinion Camaro and 2.5 turn Impala. You are
sure the box is 3 turns?? It sure doesnt seem that fast. I was told
that with the quick steer arms it would get the steering down to 3.5.

Tom

I understated the turns a little. According to the Avanti Shop Manual specifications, the power steering and fast manual boxes (both 16:1 ratio) are 3.5 turns lock to lock.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine

sbca96
10-18-2006, 02:45 AM
OK, I ordered another couple hundred dollars worth of parts from S.I.
and redid the fuel pump. I opened it up and added Permatex around the
outside edge of the upper oil seal. I found that it was leaking from
around the seal - or at least thats how it looked. I will add some
new pictures of that operation to the fuel pump rebuild thread once I
know it solved the problem.

I also (since its mentioned in this thread also) may have found some
replacement parts to fix the Camaro. I will find out this weekend. I
had no idea it would be this hard, but out here in California Hondas
and Toyotas rule the road, so finding American car parts isnt easy. I
have also found that considering how many muscle cars are driven, the
front end RARELY is intact when the car ends up in the salvage yard!

Mike M sent me some pictures of the power steering to post.

Proper routing of the control valve hoses :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/ControlValveFrameSide.jpg

Routing of the hoses under the hood :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/Avantinewimages/Avanti_Power_Steering/HosesUnderHood.jpg

Tom

tomnoller
10-18-2006, 08:04 AM
Drove my 74 Avanti to work this morning and couldn't help but think of those greasy p.s. hoses I probably should replace before they do to me what yours did to you, Tom. Granted, they're 10 years younger, but 32 years old nevertheless. I'll be curious to hear how your kit from S.I. installs.
Sorry to hear of your troubles there and with the Camaro. It takes a gutless person to hit & run and there seems to be no shortage nowadays.

Western Washington, USA

tomnoller
10-21-2006, 08:02 PM
Am planning to get the pitman arm puller tomorrow, along with a 5/8 wrench with a bend to reach the fitting on the PS pump. That's a tough one. Got the new seals in the valve and in the piston, too. Using 4 jack stands and tires removed...things really tight under there! No fun for a tall guy with big hands.

Western Washington, USA

Mike
10-21-2006, 08:36 PM
Thanks for posting the pictures, Tom.
I put colored tape on the hoses to ID them. Those are #'s 1 to 4 written on the tape.

#1 Yellow Ram, Bottom, Right Turn
#2 Green Ram, Top, Left Turn
#3 Blue Pump, Pressure
#4 Red Pump, Return

The pressure and return are the "late style". All the drawings I've seen show the "early style"; which don't curve to the rear like these. I think only the late are still available. Early and late route to the pump differently. Early go up behind the steering box, and along the manifold. Late go up in front of the box, and are laid against the apron.
The under hood picture is Paul Johnson's, '64 Avanti, R-5420, (since sold). Hoses are routed the same as I did mine; and look like they came that way.
There are three more pictures of the hoses at:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/avanti/?yguid=213751814 , in "Files".
Mike M.

sbca96
10-22-2006, 05:12 AM
tomnoller, yes a VERY gutless person. A few years ago my wife backed
into a neighbors car and broke the front turn signal, we fessed up, &
I bought a new one from the Ford dealer. Not a cheap part. Its a real
shame that people dont take ANY responsibilty for their actions these
days. I think I finally found a front clip for the Camaro. Its gold,
which isnt my first choice, but its complete except the front pass
fender got sold already! He is going to contact the guy and see if he
will sell it back, and go buy another pass fender I found in the same
area. They are up in the Sacramento area. The seller is even nice
enough to bring the parts down to me for a "little more". I cant beat
that! I hope that the swap works out, or I will have a gold front end
with a 'burnt orange' passenger fender.[xx(]

Mike, I went to that Yahoo page, but you have to be a member to see
the pictures. I signed up, but I could host those too if you want.
The parts I ordered the parts from S.I. havent made it here yet. Also,
I flaked on going to the car show today, just didnt feel like washing
the Avanti, and then muscling it over there. My mood hasnt been that
great since all this recent crap happened, of course, some would say
it wasnt that great before either!:D;)[:p]

Tom

sbca96
10-24-2006, 01:40 AM
OK .. quick update got the parts from S.I., looks like everything is
there, and it all looks nice. I also ordered the missing bracket, &
the correct power steering mounting bolt (will steal the one from the
R1 I bought a month back). Once I have the Camaro damage fixed, I
can pull it out of the garage, and put the Avanti back in![B)]

Tom

sbca96
11-06-2006, 05:38 AM
I have not been able to do ANYTHING with the Avanti power steering. I
have had to focus all my attention to getting my Camaro back on the
road again. I have the front suspension fixed from the curb my wife
hit prior to the hit and run damage to the front corner. I got a whole
front clip for a 98 Camaro, but the guy didnt pull the main brackets
off the car (think radiator "U" support on a Hawk!) before it went to
the salvage yard. I will be ordering them from back east :

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28/93to98frontend/93Camarofrontend_002a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28/93to98frontend/93Camarofrontend_005a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28/93to98frontend/93Camarofrontend_007a.jpg

http://emperorjordan.com/sbca96/images/93CamaroZ28/93to98frontend/93Camarofrontend_008a.jpg

Tom

53k
11-17-2006, 09:17 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mike

Paul,
Are the Lark hoses like the Avanti? Check out the pictures in "Files" at the Avanti Yahoo site. The one of the hose layout under hood should look familiar! It was much appreciated since my car is black. Black hoses, engine, and fender apron = invisible hoses.
Suppliers are playing fast and loose with Stude part #'s. Did you try threading a wire into the plugged PS hose, to see where the blockage is?
Mike M.

At least the '64 Lark hoses are the same as the Avanti (same part numbers). Earlier Lark-types have different part numbers, but I can't imagine how they could be much different.
I did try to push a wire through it, but couldn't. Jon Myer did replace the hose with no problem.
Today I finally got back to the Wagonaire. I did install all the hoses without removing the pitman arm, starter or anything else. It wasn't easy- took me much of the day and many contortions. I actually installed five hoses (I had to take off one of the steering hoses to get a wrench on the return line fitting- sequence IS important). The job wasn't made easier by the fact that I had to adjust the bends on all four pipes to make them fit- kind of frustrating because I was working in the barn and each time I made an adjustment I had to go up to my shop. Repro parts... I think next time I'll take my original Studebaker hoses to a shop and have them make new hoses uing my old fittings.
I had been away from it for several weeks so I was afraid I might attach a hose to the wrong place. Fortunately I had written down which went where so I didn't make such a mistake. I did find that the guy who pulled my engine didn't replace the bracket that bolts under the front exhaust manifold cap screw. However, I was able to fire up the car and everything worked ok. I was careful to work the air out of the lines before I put the wheels on the ground.

[img=right]http://www.frontiernet.net/~thejohnsons/64%20Daytona%20Convertible/Copy%20of%20DaytonaConvert7-20-06.JPG[/img=right]

Paul Johnson
'53 Commander Starliner (since 1966)
'64 Daytona Wagonaire (original owner)
'64 Daytona Convertible (2006)
Museum R-4 engine